00;00;00;00 – 00;00;22;10
Unknown
they’re playing a lot of different cards here. Right. Like they’re saying we messed up. We’re sorry. We love that they’re owning it. Yes. Oh. Oh, yes. You you should own your burger the same way you own your website. You are king of your website.

00;00;22;13 – 00;00;43;03
Unknown
Hello and welcome to Think Fresh, a podcast brought to you by the Nova marketing collective. Creative. Coming to you from our Ideas Institute and here to talk about all things marketing. Insights on new trends, innovative ideas and marketing tools you can use in your day to day life and whatever else we deem relevant. I’m Jen Neumann, de novo CEO and your host.

00;00;43;05 – 00;00;44;11
Unknown
And I’m Ryan, NFL

00;00;44;14 – 00;00;47;28
Unknown
head of digital account manager. And your other host.

00;00;48;01 – 00;01;01;02
Unknown
Today we’re going to talk about your website. And Jen, this is now officially our second video podcast. We did it. We made it through one. We did. It was, hard for me to see it.

00;01;01;05 – 00;01;24;07
Unknown
And the clips kept coming up on social media and I’m just like, oh, my gosh, I need some blurring powder. So I didn’t find any. But let’s see what happens. It is always scary. It is intimidating when we first start recording, but five minutes and we have completely forgotten that that we’re being recorded. But before, because now people can see the table that we are at, we have to introduce Brooke.

00;01;24;10 – 00;01;56;07
Unknown
Brooke, joining us for, you are our first official guest of the video podcast. I know it’s such an honor, but learned I need to. Yeah. So. Well, Brooke Rock, you are our website development lead. And again, thank you for for volunteering to talk about websites with with me and Jen and our and our viewers. But before we get into websites, I have to talk about something that is very important to me because this is a sports podcast, sports.

00;01;56;09 – 00;02;24;17
Unknown
The WNBA has officially come up with their agreements. So the Players Association and the WNBA, they have come to agreement and the players are making so much more money. When I say so much more money, it’s not like, oh, they are making oh, like they’re, they’re making up to ten times the amount that they were their cap went from, or their starting salary went from around 60,000, up to $350,000 for for rookie players.

00;02;24;17 – 00;02;43;21
Unknown
That takes the player cap of 250,000 up to like 1.6 million. They are now paying the players, which is great to see. I am curious how this all is going to work out after the first year, but that’s that’s the business side. I’m here for the basketball, here for the basketball. I think their ad revenue is showing they can support it.

00;02;43;21 – 00;03;14;00
Unknown
So I, I was glad to see it happen. I don’t pretend to fully understand what all was decided, but I am yeah. This is so important. Yeah. When you when it comes to equality, I mean, we have to we have to treat women’s sports at the same level that we treat men’s sports. And I just have to lodge my continuous complaint that when I look for the Iowa basketball score, no matter what, it will give me the last men’s basketball score like it’s going to be.

00;03;14;00 – 00;03;18;18
Unknown
Yes, Google. Come on. Yes, Google. Figure that out. Get get your act together.

00;03;18;21 – 00;03;23;18
Unknown
And that’s also a great time to. We’re currently in March Madness time right.

00;03;23;26 – 00;03;27;29
Unknown
Brooke. Opinions on the WNBA or March Madness? Well, this

00;03;27;29 – 00;03;34;08
Unknown
is my sports podcast that I listen to for all the sports updates, so that covers it for me.

00;03;34;11 – 00;03;43;05
Unknown
Perfect. We’ve now covered the extent of your sports is like, yes, whatever. Ryan says at the beginning of of the of the podcast on on sports to

00;03;43;05 – 00;03;49;10
Unknown
we also, in the world of pop culture, another marketing opportunity. The Oscars happened. Jen, did you watch the Oscars?

00;03;49;10 – 00;03;52;21
Unknown
I did not know. Shocker to anybody.

00;03;52;23 – 00;03;59;22
Unknown
Brooke. Oscars. No. Admittedly, I also did not watch the Oscars. However,

00;03;59;24 – 00;04;05;27
Unknown
all of the buzz around our bar on the Oscars is very exciting, devoting all of the pieces that tie into it.

00;04;06;04 – 00;04;24;02
Unknown
It is marketing, right? Like they are. They are campaigning. They are marketing to each other. Timothy Charlemagne came out with a, some interesting topics around ballet and dance. Yes, he did, and it ruined his chances. I don’t want to say he shot himself in the foot, but

00;04;24;05 – 00;04;26;19
Unknown
Is that what tanked him here? That is he.

00;04;26;19 – 00;04;40;01
Unknown
He was running a great campaign. He was talking about Marty Supreme. People were on board talking about Marty Supreme, and they’re like, yeah, this is Tim. He’s year. He’s going to get it. Spoilers. No, he.

00;04;40;03 – 00;04;43;11
Unknown
He did not win. He did not win. But when it comes to our winners,

00;04;43;17 – 00;04;52;14
Unknown
I don’t know if this is the first time, but we had a tie for the Oscars. The the best short. There were two winners for the best short.

00;04;52;17 – 00;05;07;23
Unknown
Jen, do you know what those were? Well, I, I heard because we did talk about this, and, I’ll just say the names of them, and I have no, liability or responsibility for what these are called, the singers and two people exchanging saliva.

00;05;07;26 – 00;05;08;26
Unknown
Is that correct?

00;05;08;29 – 00;05;29;11
Unknown
That is. That is correct. I’m very curious. And, you know, part of marketing, once again, naming, branding. You know, I’m assuming I know what I’m going to get from a show or a movie or a short film called Two People Exchanging Saliva. But it might be it might be a red herring. They might be trying to throw us off.

00;05;29;11 – 00;05;32;05
Unknown
It’s just about one person kissing whatsoever. Exactly.

00;05;32;08 – 00;05;43;24
Unknown
I am very curious. I have heard from one of our producers that singers is a very great short film, so I’ll be checking that out. And the name itself, two people exchanging saliva is making me curious.

00;05;43;29 – 00;05;47;19
Unknown
I have to know how long these shorts are before I commit to watching any of that.

00;05;47;22 – 00;06;11;10
Unknown
Yeah. What truly is a short? Are we talking like under 20 minutes? Five minutes, tick tock style. Like what? Like lame chicken video on Instagram. Okay, we do need to start including chicken videos because I think you mentioned in every podcast and I have started to see more and more of them on my feed on this list. Yes, I make chicken podcasts and that you just want to not disappoint me.

00;06;11;11 – 00;06;34;08
Unknown
Like the algorithm is merging. I think that our algorithms do eventually start to merge, that it takes into account the people that you are following, what they like when it comes into the algorithm. So it’s always so I should prepare to see some chicken videos. Yes, I feel like you would be on. I probably would brook. What is your algorithm for love?

00;06;34;11 – 00;06;37;16
Unknown
Oh gosh, if you had to summarize it in a few words, what’s your algorithm?

00;06;37;24 – 00;06;47;18
Unknown
Board games? Yeah. All board game. Yeah. Are there nerd culture? Oh, yeah. There’s there’s teams of all kinds.

00;06;47;21 – 00;06;57;10
Unknown
I got only imagine in like the, the latest one is chicken fried dice is the name of. So that’s. Yeah a game or those are your dice.

00;06;57;13 – 00;07;15;04
Unknown
No. That’s the name of a game. Yeah. So. Right. Oh, I’m I’m like, so the chicken tie in and everything already. Chickens are great. Oh my God, this does look this looks fun. This looks fun. And this is much more. You said it’s a dice game, but this is very intense. There’s a lot of moving pieces.

00;07;15;07 – 00;07;18;19
Unknown
The world of board games, friends, it’s very intense.

00;07;18;19 – 00;07;35;27
Unknown
And it is much more elaborate than thinking like Settlers of Catan, life, travel, etc. they’re amazing. Like the branding that goes into these, the design, all of that. It’s a world that you have explained to me and just all of your all of your fellow villains. It is

00;07;36;05 – 00;07;44;09
Unknown
it’s wild as our official board game. Yes. And, Dino, you definitely have educated us on a few of these things.

00;07;44;11 – 00;07;50;28
Unknown
today, we’re talking about how your website is infrastructure and not just a brochure. Right?

00;07;51;01 – 00;08;01;07
Unknown
Jen, when you hear, like, the word brochure, right. We we’ve I’ve heard you specifically talk about a website as brochure where explain that to to our audience.

00;08;01;13 – 00;08;23;29
Unknown
We’re often referring to a website as brochure where when it it’s very simplistic. I mean we have a talking a five page web site that is information only doesn’t really have much more than a contact form. But even then, even when we’re designing a site that is brochure aware, it’s still more than a brochure, right? That is just more to encapsulate.

00;08;24;02 – 00;08;44;15
Unknown
What’s in that site might not be much more than you could get into a trifold, brochure. So, so we call it that, but it’s still, it’s not, you know, it is. It is the the front porch of your business. It is the way that people are going to find you first, instead of walk in traffic, you can have stuck in traffic.

00;08;44;15 – 00;09;01;29
Unknown
I mean, people are going to even if they are coming to a brick and mortar location, they are probably going to find you online first. And that is why it is important that your site not just be a brochure, but it is the infrastructure of your of your marketing as well.

00;09;02;02 – 00;09;08;09
Unknown
Yes. So talking about that structure of the website, talking about like you said, how it fits into your actual marketing.

00;09;08;15 – 00;09;29;01
Unknown
It’s not just I think even I used to say your websites like your your fifth location or your 10th location, it’s your whatever, how many locations you have, plus one, right? It’s your next location. No, your website needs to be functional. And that’s why we’re joined by Brooke to talk through all of these pieces. Brooke, you have been at Genova for over ten years.

00;09;29;01 – 00;09;45;07
Unknown
11, 12 years? Yeah, some somewhere around there has. Yeah. And part of that websites have changed a lot in that area. Have you noticed any sizable shifts or what has changed the most in your time developing websites?

00;09;45;10 – 00;10;06;17
Unknown
like every aspect of it is always changing. And so that comes down to, like even like SEO accessibility. When I first started accessibility wasn’t even really talked about at all. And now it is a big part of like the foundation of our sites. So, so that might be the biggest thing there.

00;10;06;19 – 00;10;28;23
Unknown
But also just the content and how important that content is on the site that really is. It used to be about like making that pretty brochure that attractive brochure website, the design of it and all of that. But now, like we we love to make pretty websites, of course. But it is really about the content that is on the site now.

00;10;28;25 – 00;10;38;01
Unknown
Yeah. And I think that goes into how people now get to your website. It used to be, oh, you’re on a TV commercial or you’re at a trade show and you’re telling people

00;10;38;08 – 00;10;48;08
Unknown
your website, you’re saying, go to this website dot com or.org. Now it’s about finding it. People are finding your website in so many different ways, and it’s not direct traffic

00;10;48;11 – 00;10;49;03
Unknown
for the most part.

00;10;49;07 – 00;10;54;20
Unknown
Right? It’s it’s content driven because that is how our friendly AI agents. That is how

00;10;54;26 – 00;10;57;17
Unknown
Our search engines are finding us.

00;10;57;20 – 00;11;18;24
Unknown
Brookie Bennett done over a long time? And you’ve made a bunch of websites and how has our website process changed in those years, knowing that you have seen what works really well for some sites, seeing what we need to change in our process to continuously give our clients the best website possible, I think the biggest change has come at in the time and planning ahead of building the website.

00;11;18;27 – 00;11;35;11
Unknown
So that’s the keyword research, the site map, meeting with the client, finding their goals and putting that all all together, to create the best user experience for not only the users of the website, but our clients as well.

00;11;35;13 – 00;11;42;13
Unknown
When you say user experience, what do you mean by by that? Like it’s it’s how the user experiences the website.

00;11;42;15 – 00;11;56;25
Unknown
But this is a whole science, right? Right. It’s it’s like how you feel when you use anything really like is it a positive experience or is it kind of like a drag and what. Yes, difficult. Are there barriers

00;11;56;28 – 00;12;05;21
Unknown
while you’re doing it? Like you want it to be a positive experience for like website specifically like when they come to your website, are they finding what they’re looking for

00;12;05;23 – 00;12;15;17
Unknown
when there is a natural sort of order to where people expect to see things, which can kind of dictate the, the layout of the site to some extent.

00;12;15;17 – 00;12;31;09
Unknown
But, you know, if you put the menu at the, in the footer, what will not know where to look. I mean, that’s like UI, UX at its most basic, where people expect to see it, and make it easier for them to find information.

00;12;31;12 – 00;12;38;00
Unknown
I think one of the things that’s changed a lot is just what it has to go into the infrastructure or the back end of a website to keep it safe, to keep it.

00;12;38;00 – 00;13;04;12
Unknown
It’s and I think any agency that is building websites has to continue, that investment and it’s, it’s a big investment has to be made constantly. But I think I am always concerned about sites that are built, free builders and don’t have all the infrastructure behind them to keep them safe. Like, you’re not only maybe endangering your business, but you might be endangering the users of that website.

00;13;04;12 – 00;13;10;25
Unknown
And that’s just a constant education point and an investment point for us here.

00;13;10;28 – 00;13;20;16
Unknown
yeah, ensuring that our sites are like, I don’t want to say not hackable, because that’s scary to say. I’m just knocking on wood. We haven’t had that issue, but

00;13;20;19 – 00;13;27;17
Unknown
it is scary because you’re not just in charge of your website. Like you said, you’re in charge of the data that your clients might be inputting into your website.

00;13;27;17 – 00;13;32;18
Unknown
Those contact forms. That’s an information that if it gets hacked, that’s then

00;13;32;21 – 00;13;38;21
Unknown
taken. And so really hack of trying because, I mean, we get alerts when that type of thing is, is attempted. And and

00;13;38;24 – 00;13;45;05
Unknown
again, this is this is where businesses have to be really cognizant of the security of their own site. But

00;13;45;06 – 00;13;46;12
Unknown
that’s kind of a boring.

00;13;46;14 – 00;14;02;11
Unknown
Yeah. Yes, yes. We’re going back to I’m going to take it back to the sitemap piece of things, Brooke, because like you said, this is this is a change in our process. And previously we would design a sitemap based on a few sentences that we might have gotten from a client.

00;14;02;17 – 00;14;11;02
Unknown
Right. But now we’re actually because most people already have an existing website, we’re able to go in and pull existing site traffic.

00;14;11;09 – 00;14;18;00
Unknown
Right. How is that informed the sitemap process for you? How has that changed everything for you?

00;14;18;03 – 00;14;27;26
Unknown
Yeah, definitely. And the reason that we put so much time into the sitemap is because navigation is how they’re finding your your content. Again, back to the content.

00;14;27;28 – 00;14;36;08
Unknown
now we work with Ali with our digital team lead here and we take a look at the traffic and then kind of analyze it.

00;14;36;08 – 00;14;58;04
Unknown
So we look at all the top pages that are either being landed on or like or navigated to from the homepage because it’s usually always the homepage that is the top is the top page, but then there’s some after that. But then we also look deeper. So where they’re going from that homepage or from those other landing pages.

00;14;58;06 – 00;15;21;09
Unknown
And from there we can kind of analyze like, okay, are they leaving that page because they didn’t find what they wanted there? Are they like, why are they landing there? They’re searching for this, but maybe they’re looking for something else. And so with all of that and then we also meet with the clients and get a feel for their goals and what they want people to be doing on their site.

00;15;21;12 – 00;15;37;01
Unknown
So it’s kind of a combination of those two where we take what people are already doing, what we want them to do, and what we think the users want to do on there. Based on the client and the industry as well. So

00;15;37;05 – 00;15;44;16
Unknown
I think that’s the part it’s not just necessarily what the clients think that people should be doing on their website.

00;15;44;17 – 00;15;49;25
Unknown
Right. We now come with so much more information to say, this is how your website is currently being used.

00;15;49;28 – 00;16;04;07
Unknown
Do you want to change that behavior? If so, we can we can help with that change. But at the same time, it is eye opening for our clients, at least the client meetings that I’ve said and on. As we are rolling out this new process, they are shocked, right?

00;16;04;07 – 00;16;22;27
Unknown
They are shocked that people care more about X than they do Z. They might have built their business around this, but people are doing searches for this online and they’re like, that is good to know. And it gives us more information, right? In this case, knowledge is power. Being able to go in and say, these are your top pages.

00;16;22;27 – 00;16;33;21
Unknown
This is why we’re making these recommendations. But sometimes our clients can overrule us and say, we want to make a change. We want to make a change. On how people are currently coming to our site.

00;16;33;23 – 00;16;41;15
Unknown
Brook, we say sitemap and we know what this is because we talk about sitemaps all the time when it comes to the website process.

00;16;41;18 – 00;16;48;23
Unknown
What is a site map? Explain that to my mom at home watching.

00;16;48;25 – 00;16;50;08
Unknown
It’s a very like simple,

00;16;50;14 – 00;17;16;18
Unknown
simplified outline of all of the pages on your site and how they’re connected to each other. So very graphic. Nothing pretty there either, except we do have our de novo branding on there. Yeah. And then it if you’re familiar, just like the main navigation of a site is what you see immediately when you land on the page, whether that’s on the top or the sidebar or in the footer.

00;17;16;26 – 00;17;27;22
Unknown
But we also then show, like, the drop down. So all of those items that, show up when you hover over a specific item on a website, just so that we know all the pages that are going to be involved.

00;17;27;22 – 00;17;42;17
Unknown
And then we can also on that sitemap kind of talk about all the content that’s going on. That was pages. So that might be unique to the Novo. But we like to already be thinking about the content and those important pieces that are going to be on those pages.

00;17;42;23 – 00;17;47;08
Unknown
Okay. Let’s let’s settle this question for people right now.

00;17;47;10 – 00;17;51;19
Unknown
What’s the max number of items in your main?

00;17;51;22 – 00;18;14;21
Unknown
For me I’d say six, but we can sometimes push that to seven. And that is just because that’s like the maximum, decision making that someone can make. So if you’re reading a list of items, well, and memory too. So if you’re reading a list of items, you can only really remember back 6 or 7 items.

00;18;14;23 – 00;18;39;25
Unknown
So we don’t want to overload that. And then they’re forgetting, the first item that they saw. Plus, it just makes decision making easier. With fewer items, there’s fewer things to click on. And that means if there’s, if you have two similar things, then someone might not know where that thing falls under. But if you just have the one, then it’s an easy, logical step.

00;18;39;28 – 00;18;54;08
Unknown
So the main navigation being categorical buckets, things that go underneath it. But also if you have too many in there, it really kind of screws up the top of your web page. It starts to go in and. Yeah, and can be messy

00;18;54;10 – 00;18;58;25
Unknown
and no one wants to read on, on websites anyway, so you gotta keep it.

00;18;58;28 – 00;19;00;13
Unknown
Keep it small.

00;19;00;16 – 00;19;09;12
Unknown
Yeah. I think of driving in, in Cedar Rapids in Iowa versus driving in Chicago. Right. Like there are signs there are road signs

00;19;09;15 – 00;19;21;09
Unknown
everywhere in Chicago. You’re instantly overwhelmed because you’re not familiar with it. And it’s I just think of those road signs as like a navigation item. You can’t just keep adding them. You can’t do that because it overwhelms people.

00;19;21;11 – 00;19;33;14
Unknown
Well, some communities do, though. That’s true. That is true. But you just have to you have to keep that number small because you don’t want that information overload. I think a term that I’ve heard you use, Brooke, is like choice architecture.

00;19;33;21 – 00;19;51;11
Unknown
You want to make it the most obvious to the most amount of people. When you are deciding on these things for your website, because you can run into analysis paralysis, like if I go to target, if I go to a large grocery store, there’s so many options for jellies, there’s so many options for jams.

00;19;51;13 – 00;20;07;19
Unknown
That’s why I like Aldi. You can go to Aldi and you have two choices, right? Like that is one of the benefits. You have fewer choices. And it’s like, well, here we go. Because the work has been done to create the two best jellies already. They don’t have to worry about all of these pieces that go into it.

00;20;07;27 – 00;20;15;16
Unknown
There is thought behind all of that. Well, that’s where the the SEO and the keyword research comes in handy too, because we can see

00;20;15;19 – 00;20;34;22
Unknown
the pages that people are already going to and bring those up in the navigation to the highest level. And then if maybe only two people are going to this one page a year, maybe it doesn’t have to be a navigation because we also, have a search bar that if someone’s specifically looking for that, they can search and find it.

00;20;34;24 – 00;20;37;16
Unknown
So that’s kind of where that comes into.

00;20;37;19 – 00;20;54;17
Unknown
I find it democratizes the process a little bit more, in democratized might not be the right word, but depending on how loud an individual is in that first meeting, they might say, this is the most important to our customers. It needs to be in the main navigation. We now have the data behind it.

00;20;54;19 – 00;21;14;00
Unknown
Think how many of those arguments we have for over time. I mean, it’s when you when you have a group of people in a kickoff meeting, often it is sort of the loudest voice that sometimes, can get their way. And I think sometimes we are very much trained to navigate that and remind them what the goals of the site are.

00;21;14;00 – 00;21;22;09
Unknown
And then it’s not just we can’t put everything on them. Right. And that that’s usually an education point that we do with some clients.

00;21;22;14 – 00;21;33;25
Unknown
Yes. And now the data, we’ve got the data behind it. Right? I mean, the data always existed. However now we know bring it because that these are clients. They do understand the numbers. They can just a matter of bringing it.

00;21;33;28 – 00;21;41;05
Unknown
It is like marital council kickoff meetings. Sometimes. What are some other. So we talked about

00;21;41;08 – 00;21;52;05
Unknown
six being our limit in the navigation. What are some other tips and what are some other pieces that we’ve built into our de novo website process that we can share with our, with our listeners?

00;21;52;10 – 00;21;59;04
Unknown
I guess a lot of them are related to accessibility and also SEO. Those go hand in hand and,

00;21;59;11 – 00;22;16;07
Unknown
user experience, which we’ve already talked about. Those three kind of meshed together and a lot of these things. So like I said, people don’t want to really be making tough decisions on websites. They don’t want to be reading high level college.

00;22;16;09 – 00;22;23;06
Unknown
Literature on websites. So we do like to keep the reading level at like six to eighth grade level.

00;22;23;08 – 00;22;43;03
Unknown
just making everything clear and intuitive. So that really goes into the design. But things like links, we want to avoid, like all the text links do more buttons that are like easily identifiable. So someone knows, okay, this is something I can click on and having the text explain

00;22;43;06 – 00;22;45;21
Unknown
where that link is going to take them.

00;22;45;27 – 00;23;13;09
Unknown
So not just click here because that doesn’t give them any context to where they’re going to be taken next. So that’s really, really important. And then giving that hierarchy of the content as well. So using big clear headings and breaking it up so that it isn’t just a wall of small text to read through, and people can kind of skim and find the part that is going to be the most important to them.

00;23;13;11 – 00;23;27;19
Unknown
And those, those buttons and the text links really stand out to me because it’s it’s almost instinct to just say click here. But that gives absolutely no context. And you’ve done examples and I think we might have talked about this in episode two.

00;23;27;26 – 00;23;34;23
Unknown
When we talked about websites, the screen readers, it can’t, it’s not giving additional context.

00;23;34;23 – 00;23;37;07
Unknown
Right. It’s just a button link. Click here.

00;23;37;11 – 00;23;40;15
Unknown
Right. Yeah. When you can’t see any of the, the context around

00;23;40;19 – 00;23;43;09
Unknown
that button either, that makes it even more important.

00;23;43;17 – 00;23;49;28
Unknown
Andrew if we I know we briefly mentioned accessibility. We had a full podcast episode that was episode seven.

00;23;50;01 – 00;24;02;09
Unknown
Of our podcast. It talks about city websites. However that part on accessibility is relevant to everybody. Really just ensuring that your website is able to be accessed by everyone.

00;24;02;11 – 00;24;04;22
Unknown
Well I always say like accessibility.

00;24;04;22 – 00;24;15;17
Unknown
And our philosophy at de novo is accessibility should be by default. It’s not an add on to our websites. It’s it’s built in from the the beginning. And it should be on every website.

00;24;15;17 – 00;24;26;19
Unknown
with an overlay it’s not accessible to begin with. They have to go in and adjust it. But that can also mess with their own, software that they’re using.

00;24;26;21 – 00;24;34;00
Unknown
just having it there, it’s right. Yes. I was using an example of like some

00;24;34;03 – 00;24;50;22
Unknown
video games now. Like the the bigger video games will have the, the text reading on right when you turn the game on. And, it’s come up in our house like, why, why do they do that? Like, I don’t need that. I have to go turn it off every time I start a new game.

00;24;50;29 – 00;24;57;28
Unknown
But it’s easier for us to go turn it off than for someone that needs that to go find where that is, to turn it on.

00;24;58;04 – 00;25;12;19
Unknown
Yeah. If you have a visual impairment, it’s much easier just to keep that. Because yeah, imagine trying to turn audio dictation on if you can’t see the screen very well. Right. And especially like on something like that, a program or game or something where you’ve,

00;25;12;21 – 00;25;18;21
Unknown
you haven’t played it before, you haven’t used it before, then you have to find where those menus are and all that.

00;25;18;21 – 00;25;24;01
Unknown
So similar to overlays, we just like to have a built in.

00;25;24;04 – 00;25;42;06
Unknown
Interesting though, because I don’t think the video game world has been regulated yet. Lines like in the world of websites has or is slowly becoming regulated in that. So I wonder if that’s, you know, do you see that every game. No definitely not.

00;25;42;06 – 00;25;52;15
Unknown
But yeah, I have a lot more to do with company philosophy. Yeah. Yeah. And at the end of the day they want to sell more games. Right. Like it’s, they want to I’m hoping it’s

00;25;52;21 – 00;26;03;09
Unknown
because they want to make it as accessible as possible for everybody. But if you have the reputation of oh people with vision challenges can play our games great.

00;26;03;11 – 00;26;10;14
Unknown
Right. Like that’s a company like you said, company policy. That just shows your intent of being welcoming and accepting. Yeah,

00;26;10;18 – 00;26;20;10
Unknown
and it doesn’t impair someone who doesn’t need it, right? They can just easily go turn it off. Where for websites is even nicer because people who don’t need it don’t even see it or,

00;26;20;16 – 00;26;24;23
Unknown
don’t even know that it’s there behind the scenes doing what it needs to do.

00;26;24;26 – 00;26;44;14
Unknown
So, Brooke, this is something that I touched on at the beginning when we were talking about brochure where, people sometimes refer to their website as their virtual location. Has this new infrastructure approach changed any any of that? And we’ve talked a little bit about that and how, just like the web has changed in general.

00;26;44;17 – 00;27;03;04
Unknown
what I always like to say is like just remember it, it is still a location for you, but everyone’s not coming through the front door, so, you don’t need to have, like, we already talked about everything on the home page, because if someone’s specifically searching for something, they’re going to be taken to that landing page.

00;27;03;04 – 00;27;05;00
Unknown
So they might be going through the window of your house

00;27;05;06 – 00;27;27;20
Unknown
instead. So they’ll get right to the goods that they want right away. So yeah, just touches back on that. And it varies so much by the purpose, I mean B2B, B2C, it all vary. So it has to be customized to you, what your company is, where you are, what your site goals are.

00;27;27;20 – 00;27;54;04
Unknown
So, I think that that, the language around virtual location is really kind of outdated at this point in time. It’s not really your virtual location. It is the way that people find you no matter what. Probably for most companies, a considerable portion of their audience is going to find them online before they ever, a brick and mortar or pick up a phone, God forbid.

00;27;54;06 – 00;28;20;23
Unknown
Oh, wait, if you make a call regarding a product or service or whatever, whatever it is that your company does. So, it needs to be customized to your own company’s individual goals, and then it needs that whole infrastructure underneath it to ensure that it meets those goals. And I found that more and more of our clients and our partners are actually building the website into their processes, truly into their infrastructure.

00;28;20;26 – 00;28;39;25
Unknown
So, for example, even before you can call our IT support our our IT support, the the vendor we use for it, you have to send something from their website. You have to start the ticket on their website. So their website. Right. But I think that there is some benefit because then they can see the IP that it’s coming from.

00;28;39;25 – 00;29;01;13
Unknown
They can verify some information. They can also collect so much more information more quickly from you on a website form, versus calling in and trying to say all this information so I can see where they’re building it into their processes. And it’s not because that’s their virtual location. It’s a core part of all of their locations. Your website can be a part of all of your locations.

00;29;01;15 – 00;29;08;01
Unknown
And just thinking of ways that this can streamline your processes or at least become part of your processes.

00;29;08;04 – 00;29;18;03
Unknown
And we don’t want to block people from coming in through the window. We don’t want to block people from coming in the front door. But what are ways that your website can be built in order to allow them access

00;29;18;06 – 00;29;28;22
Unknown
that gives them the ability to, walk directly to the product that they are going to instead of have to walk through the front door, walk by all of these products they might not necessarily want.

00;29;28;23 – 00;29;31;25
Unknown
How can your website expedite that process?

00;29;31;27 – 00;29;38;27
Unknown
So how search play into that then? Right. How does how do things like fax play and

00;29;39;00 – 00;29;46;14
Unknown
And I think I think are interesting because they are great for AI. Right. They are great for IR. They are great for search.

00;29;46;16 – 00;29;54;20
Unknown
But at the end of the day, we are building our websites for people and you want to make sure that the website is is telling you that information.

00;29;54;20 – 00;30;04;15
Unknown
Brooke, do you have opinions on on that? Yeah, for a long time, I think you years have been a four letter word for me. Yes.

00;30;04;19 – 00;30;18;05
Unknown
And that is just because, like, just for my own experience, like when you go to a website, I think was the last place I want to go to find the information I need, because I might sit there and read through everyone and still not find the answer that I want.

00;30;18;07 – 00;30;41;10
Unknown
So I want to be able to go to the most logical place that I think that the answer would be and find it there, rather than searching through an FAQ. Now, there are ways that we can make FAQs more user friendly, but I rarely see this, and that would be to have like a search specific for the FAQ or having some way to filter the questions so you don’t have.

00;30;41;10 – 00;30;44;26
Unknown
Just like this giant list of questions,

00;30;44;28 – 00;31;02;10
Unknown
I absolutely see how they’re useful in search and specifically with AI. But you know, you get through an FAQ or you’re trying to find an answer, and then at the bottom it gives you that little with this, with this so freaking lutely not. Yeah, it’s not helpful. I don’t know that they’re really meant to be helpful.

00;31;02;12 – 00;31;14;19
Unknown
They’re really meant for keyword. Yeah, yeah. And for our clients to get very similar questions. Right. So city websites, manufacturing clients where the questions can be similar.

00;31;14;21 – 00;31;22;09
Unknown
Wouldn’t it be great if people can just get their question answered without having to go to the FAQ? It’s like, we know that a lot of people ask this question.

00;31;22;12 – 00;31;46;25
Unknown
Let’s put that information on our home page. Let’s answer the question for them. Right. But then you can have those FAQ pages that are for our friendly AI agents that are answering questions for us now. Because that is that is a new trend. Like you were saying, Brooke, websites are constantly changing, and I think search engines and AI agents are part of what leads that change.

00;31;46;27 – 00;31;55;18
Unknown
And we always have to be thinking, okay, people are on the website. Ultimately, people are still ultimately the main source of website traffic.

00;31;55;21 – 00;32;07;11
Unknown
I say right now, yeah, I say right now, that might be different in a year. Who knows? Or six months. We’ll see. But I think that that just goes to say websites are constantly changing.

00;32;07;11 – 00;32;29;05
Unknown
And I think that the novos philosophy or process for websites has been evolving over the years, like we’ve been doing this for over a decade now, and our websites have changed quite a bit. Right. And I’m sure they’ll continue to change. We were saying earlier websites, we used to have to say mobile friendly, that that was something that we would call out on our website proposals because other places weren’t doing it.

00;32;29;11 – 00;32;53;15
Unknown
Right, right. It’s table stakes. You have to ask. We’ll make sure. Yeah. No devices. That’s definitely, they although I just went to a city site yesterday that had, one of those sites where it’s like, you can see the mobile site and then you can see, the full desktop site. And of course, it’s like tiny, it doesn’t fit on your screen.

00;32;53;15 – 00;32;55;12
Unknown
And,

00;32;55;14 – 00;32;58;24
Unknown
I would say call them out, but we’re not going to do that. There’s better ways to do

00;32;58;26 – 00;33;04;01
Unknown
that. No.

00;33;04;04 – 00;33;10;16
Unknown
Calling them not naming names, I love it. And we can help. We can help. But but like you said, there’s better

00;33;10;19 – 00;33;18;18
Unknown
ways of doing it now, right? Like there are better ways we’ve evolved past this. Brooke, if you were to say if you were to summarize how our website, what our

00;33;18;23 – 00;33;22;13
Unknown
website philosophy is, what is de novos website philosophy?

00;33;22;16 – 00;33;27;20
Unknown
I mean, she wrote our website. Yes. So true. This is a gimme, right?

00;33;27;23 – 00;33;50;17
Unknown
Yes. I don’t have the fancy wording. But it is just based around the user experience for our clients and their clients. And then also, just being very, open and like our, our clients own their own website. We, we let them have the keys.

00;33;50;20 – 00;33;56;25
Unknown
And they’re able to make updates, but we’re also always there to support them as well.

00;33;56;28 – 00;34;19;10
Unknown
Having that accessibility just baked in from the the start by default. Earlier is it’s just a key part of that. Yeah. Every site should be accessible. And you know eventually that’ll be some sort of federal law. But I would encourage people to think ahead on that and think about the importance of every user who comes to your site.

00;34;19;12 – 00;34;33;11
Unknown
it’s not just like checking off a box to be accessible so that we’re compliant. It really is like you’re allowing more people in and and potentially getting their business or, communicating to them. So

00;34;33;14 – 00;34;37;27
Unknown
and you said this when you were talking about the website. It’s not just the front end of your website.

00;34;37;27 – 00;34;53;25
Unknown
We want to make sure our clients know that they own their websites, but also know how to update them. Right? We’ve we’ve worked with some clients where they say, oh yeah, we don’t make updates to our website. We’re not allowed to, it’s yours. What do you mean you’re not allowed to? It’s you, our website. At the end of the day, the website is still yours.

00;34;53;25 – 00;35;03;00
Unknown
We are there for backup. We are there to make those updates for you. But yeah, we like to empower them that it’s not scary and we can make it

00;35;03;03 – 00;35;15;08
Unknown
even easier for them, especially if like, you mentioned clients using their website as a tool for their business. We want to make that tool easy to use. So that goes back to the user experience.

00;35;15;11 – 00;35;16;16
Unknown
In that regard. And

00;35;16;23 – 00;35;36;02
Unknown
what I recommend an investment. Yes. If you’re going to pay to have your site professionally developed, then, you should have the training and the ability to make changes. You need to or the support, to do so if you don’t want to. That’s just one thing that kind of drives me crazy is when a website is really locked down.

00;35;36;04 – 00;35;38;28
Unknown
Yeah. Paid for. Yeah.

00;35;39;00 – 00;35;53;05
Unknown
So, Brooke, we we’ve talked a lot about making websites simple and how websites really act as your infrastructure versus just, like brochures. If you had to leave our listeners with three main things from today’s conversation, what would they be?

00;35;53;08 – 00;36;00;16
Unknown
Your navigation should be backed by data and accessibility and

00;36;00;19 – 00;36;05;03
Unknown
mobile experience should be in there by default.

00;36;05;05 – 00;36;07;25
Unknown
And then you should own you should own that. You should own your

00;36;08;01 – 00;36;15;04
Unknown
website. You should have full control of your website. Yes, yes. It’s yours. Right? Right, I love that.

00;36;15;11 – 00;36;25;13
Unknown
Now it’s time for our segment called Creative Briefs. This is where we dig into a marketing campaign company or idea and see what insights we can glean from their marketing moves.

00;36;25;16 – 00;36;47;07
Unknown
Today’s creative brief is about Burger King, right? Have you guys seen this commercial? Oh yeah. Yeah, I, I admittedly had not until before this. So I checked it out and then I realized I had seen it. I actually had seen this this campaign is called there’s a New King and It’s you. Instantly I was like, okay, wait,

00;36;47;07 – 00;36;50;10
Unknown
what is this tied at all to Prince Andrew?

00;36;50;10 – 00;36;54;26
Unknown
I was curious, I was curious, I have to admit.

00;36;54;29 – 00;37;09;02
Unknown
And, and in this video, actually. Let’s play. Can we magically swipe over to the video? Oh, gosh, I love it, I love it, and now we can’t play the audio on here because we do have some of that music. But, I love the nostalgia pieces of this.

00;37;09;02 – 00;37;26;13
Unknown
So it starts by saying, you told us what you really thought about Burger King, which I didn’t necessarily think. This, I thought for Griffin was still great, but it’s because we’ve got too many police. And the CEO gave his number. Right. I some cool pieces. It’s like you told us what you wanted to change. We start with nostalgia.

00;37;26;18 – 00;37;50;24
Unknown
It says, there was a time when you always had it your way, which I love because it’s their tagline. But somewhere, somehow, fast food fell off, us included. So they’re straight up saying it’s like we messed up. We realized that, and that Brooke, like you said, the CEO comes on here and gives out his phone number of not necessarily in this commercial, but he he says, like, I gave up my phone number.

00;37;50;24 – 00;38;11;07
Unknown
People were calling, people were texting me, he was just right there. But they then got to work on on making all of these changes. Can you imagine the number of romantic inquiries that got me? I would refer to them only as the King. They also mentioned firing their king, who is now one of their mascots.

00;38;11;09 – 00;38;29;26
Unknown
Who? What? One of their mascot was one of their mascots. Never liked the king. Never liked the king? Always. Because. Because it’s one of those weird mascots where it’s like, okay, yes, you you do have a mascot, and you have, you’re covering your face, but you’re still a human. Like, even in sports mascots. It weirds me out a little bit.

00;38;29;26 – 00;38;47;24
Unknown
Like Sparty, the Spartans to be kind of a dork. But then they also have that music for a while with it. Like those jingle songs that were discordant and off tune and, just felt like they were kind of coming off the rails. Now, I did do a year over year deep dive into Burger King’s, annual revenues, and they have been growing.

00;38;47;24 – 00;39;08;16
Unknown
It’s not like, but they haven’t been growing by leaps and bounds. Okay. So maybe this is maybe that’s behind this. Yeah. Yeah. And I think that they it’s it’s unique because they’re saying the quiet part out loud. Right. They’re saying we messed up or we weren’t. Fast food in general, including us is not giving you the experience that you came to love it for.

00;39;08;19 – 00;39;28;02
Unknown
It was fast. It was cheaper than some of the other food options that you had. But as prices increased, it becomes less fast. Why would you go to McDonald’s or Burger King versus another restaurant that can be faster, cheaper shit ification of of, fast food. And basically they’re saying we’re taking a step back, but

00;39;28;05 – 00;39;32;08
Unknown
okay, so here’s the interesting piece of this that I’m a little obsessed with.

00;39;32;11 – 00;39;54;06
Unknown
Patrick Doyle is the chairman of Restaurant Brands, which is the parent company of Burger King. And he’s the guy who is CEO of Domino’s. When they said our pizza sucks and we’re sorry. So this is a turnaround move. Although I wouldn’t say Burger King necessarily needed a turnaround, but they definitely need a a boost. I’d say, because they haven’t grown that much to me.

00;39;54;06 – 00;40;23;09
Unknown
I think the only year they actually went down was that pandemic year. But, you know, I think they’re at 1.5, 1 billion, in annual revenue. But that’s barely over last year. So I think that not only were they kind of reaching this plateau, but their food had definitely maybe backslid a little bit. But I just when I, when I saw that and I think Adweek maybe that Patrick Doyle is chairman of that, I’m like, I know that name.

00;40;23;12 – 00;40;41;23
Unknown
I think that was the Domino’s guy. So I went down a rabbit hole on that. And, you know, brands don’t do this very often where they give them a culpa and say, I mean, this is like a one time thing. If you have to do it twice, then you permanently suck. You know, they you can only play this card one time and they’re playing it right now.

00;40;41;26 – 00;41;03;02
Unknown
Yeah. And I like that you call it the May call blitz. Like this is their one chance to do this. And they they showed in this commercial they showed some user generated content. Right. It looked like they were, showing TikToks of bad experiences of people with smash Burgers, etc.. Someone even said you’re oh, gosh, what was the quote you

00;41;03;02 – 00;41;04;22
Unknown
say, the king that you feed me like a peasant?

00;41;04;23 – 00;41;28;12
Unknown
Yeah, yeah, I’m a king. But you feed me like a peasant. Like, oh, wow. Wow. So, so they’re doing it. And it is very interesting that this is a play that has been done before by the chairman of their board. Very interesting. But I really like, like we said, the title of this campaign is There’s a New King and it’s you, really putting the people back in power.

00;41;28;14 – 00;41;33;27
Unknown
There’s a lot of talks around King’s, right. I know King’s protest. All of those things. Like,

00;41;33;29 – 00;41;40;09
Unknown
you are the king, you are in control. And one of my favorite parts about Burger King was the crowns.

00;41;40;12 – 00;41;47;01
Unknown
They had the crowns. Not surprised by this. Yes, I know if we look at this crown, there’s some gems on there.

00;41;47;02 – 00;42;02;23
Unknown
There’s some gems. The crowns that they’re giving out don’t have don’t have these gems, but they’re. That’s also a nostalgic part for me at least, like, oh, yeah, there’s crowns now. I might get looked at weird. If I go in and wear a crown, I would. I’m not afraid to say it’s like, I’m not I’m not above that.

00;42;02;25 – 00;42;08;23
Unknown
But they’re, they’re, they’re playing a lot of different cards here. Right. Like they’re saying we messed up. We’re sorry. We’re changing

00;42;08;29 – 00;42;23;13
Unknown
their own, that they’re owning their owning. Yes. Oh. Oh, yes. You you should own your burger the same way you own your what you are. You are king of your website. Oh, I love that,

00;42;23;16 – 00;42;31;28
Unknown
Jen. Brooke, what do you think I I’m into this. I’m into this. What do you guys think did this? Did this? Are you into it or are you over it?

00;42;32;01 – 00;42;44;28
Unknown
Playing back on something that we used to call or playing back on one version of creative briefs into it or over it? I’m into it. Nostalgia always hits and I think like they are taking ownership of it.

00;42;44;28 – 00;43;09;19
Unknown
They’re not saying like, what’s changed about you or like anything like that. So and then they’re bringing it back to the customer. So yeah, it works. I’m into it. But I’m also curious because a campaign like this doesn’t come together overnight. And it wasn’t very long ago that we had the McDonald’s CEO. Like taking the bit of the product is all about that.

00;43;09;22 – 00;43;34;12
Unknown
It’s so cold and awkward. And then, of course, you know, Wendy’s jumped on and started making fun of them as the Wendy I respect them for, Burger King did to but, you know, all that was kind of happening at the same time because I don’t think this I mean, this campaign is pretty new here. Right before the McDonald’s CEO, it was the smallest bite.

00;43;34;12 – 00;43;50;19
Unknown
And that was, can you explain that, like talk that through? You did basically a video of himself eating. I think it’s called an arch burger. I don’t know what an arch burger is. Do you not do Quarter Pounders anymore? But, basically say takes this burger and he just takes this, like, little mouse bite out of it.

00;43;50;22 – 00;44;17;09
Unknown
I don’t want to eat this burger. And then he refers to it as a good product. And I don’t know where they got this idea from. I was like, yeah, that’s great. Let’s let’s post it approved. But that all kind of happened, I don’t know, within a month. Right. Campaign launching. So, and that’s probably was just a gift given the burger, especially as they’re working through all of this.

00;44;17;09 – 00;44;38;26
Unknown
Right? They might have added in the line with their CEO, but like that fit very well into the video. They pulled him up and they did not show him biting into their product. No. They just said, if you want to reach us, you can. But they should have just been like him just biting right into it. And, so here’s another another thing to think about.

00;44;38;26 – 00;45;01;00
Unknown
Not that long, I’d say within the last ten years. And he started seeing these burger commercials where the burgers were getting bigger and bigger and bigger, and that was what was selling. It’s like, oh, the bigger the burger, the more food you could get. Well, appetites are changing. Yeah. To GLP ones. Yeah. And you notice they’re not saying that a burger is bigger than anybody else’s.

00;45;01;00 – 00;45;24;22
Unknown
They’re saying it’s better. Yeah. They’re saying that our ingredients are better. You’re saying it. It it looks better, but nobody’s saying like this is a mammoth burger. They also went really masculine. A lot of that advertising, And it was I mean, it’s very dude focused there. And I think that, all of these restaurants probably realize that, you know, chicks eat burgers.

00;45;24;24 – 00;45;48;12
Unknown
I just it’s just interesting to watch it from, like, a larger perspective and see how these campaigns have changed over the years. Yeah, really zooming out and like, looking at it from a macro level. Big. Oh, these companies talk about similar things when they are advertising. Right. And that is changing. It’s when you mentioned that instead of hungry men like the, the TV dinner.

00;45;48;12 – 00;45;54;06
Unknown
The TV dinner. Yeah. Oh, hungry. It’s like, okay, calm down.

00;45;54;08 – 00;46;01;02
Unknown
Brooke and Jen, if you had to pick a fast food, if you had to pick a fast food, you were forced to, where would you go?

00;46;01;05 – 00;46;28;21
Unknown
I could bell any day. I mean, if we’re talking about burger places, Wendy’s, but I think the office default is Jimmy John’s. Oh, yeah. This. Yeah. We’re keeping Jimmy John’s in his. I can just remember the time that Brooke trialed the pickle, which. Oh, no. Yeah. This for us and gave it a good review. Right? Yeah. Burgers.

00;46;28;24 – 00;46;50;03
Unknown
I don’t know, the last time I had a fast food burger. It has been a really long time. This commercial made me open to the idea of trying the Burger King, burger. I would probably never order a McDonald’s burger. I am such a product of marketing. Jen, I agree with you. Like, I now want to go to Burger King, but the exact opposite of you McDonald’s is my go to.

00;46;50;03 – 00;47;12;27
Unknown
And I just like burgers that are like, super. Yes. Super thin drive. I just love the standard McDonald’s burger. But if I’m going to Wendy’s, which I also love, and get that spicy chicken sandwich no matter what. But I love fast food just in general, like a connoisseur, almost. But I can’t remember the last time I went to Burger King.

00;47;12;27 – 00;47;13;27
Unknown
And this, this

00;47;13;29 – 00;47;29;09
Unknown
commercial makes me want to go back, but it also throws in one of the the hidden gems of Burger King, where you would get fries and there would always just be an onion ring in the fries, and they had an onion ring on top of a burger. And I was like, I’m on purpose.

00;47;29;11 – 00;47;30;14
Unknown
Like, was that on purpose?

00;47;30;14 – 00;47;46;22
Unknown
I don’t think theirs was on purpose. Now, I think there’s another fast food company that, like, does that on purpose. But it was always just like a very exciting thing because I never had the opportunity to get onion rings. There was always just like one in there. And I’m like, yeah, but it’s like a blind box.

00;47;46;24 – 00;48;06;21
Unknown
Exactly. Like, you never know when you get it. All of that is kind of scary when you’re just opening your food. I wonder if a fast food restaurant does that and there’s a pair. $6 will give you what you get a fun new experience. Yeah, I cause I’m on board. So at the end of the day, this commercial worked.

00;48;06;24 – 00;48;24;04
Unknown
What, are you guys going to go to Burger King? Probably not. I would need a reason. It would have to be like a road trip or something where there’s not a Taco Bell. And that’s fine. So you’re into it? Might not have necessarily worked.

00;48;24;06 – 00;48;27;26
Unknown
I’m going to say I’m into it, and it works like I’m considering Burger King this afternoon.

00;48;27;26 – 00;48;44;29
Unknown
At least this week. Well, there will be a Burger King trip in the near future. All right. Report back on the quality of the burger. So I did read some of the YouTube comments on the ad, and, and somebody said, I just went there last week and it really did look like the burger in the commercial so that, okay, that’s criteria number one.

00;48;44;29 – 00;49;05;22
Unknown
Does it look like an actual burger that you wouldn’t see on the commercial to. Does it taste okay or good. Yeah. So maybe we need to do it for science and and bring one into the office to see if it does look like the commercial burger. Yes. Actually. Want to eat the bird because I’m already messy enough. Yes.

00;49;05;22 – 00;49;16;06
Unknown
So be following us on social. We’ll be posting my burger that I’m going to get from Burger King in the comments of this in the comments of this social post. Okay, you heard it right here.

00;49;16;09 – 00;49;22;28
Unknown
Yes, but that’s also a good reminder. So if you are listening to this on Spotify, Apple, wherever you normally listen to our podcast,

00;49;23;05 – 00;49;28;17
Unknown
you should also now be following along on our YouTube page and other platforms where we’re posting the video.

00;49;28;18 – 00;49;47;05
Unknown
You can see us in person. You can see us playing the video on the screen. You can see me talking to the screen right now. If you want more than ever in your life, you want more to know about your life. You want to see more de novo? Follow us, subscribe, and and experience a new way of think.

00;49;47;05 – 00;49;47;22
Unknown
Fresh.

00;49;47;25 – 00;50;07;21
Unknown
Brook, thank you so much for being our first guest on the video podcast. How was it? It was fine. How scary. Like, just a little scary. Yeah, a little scary. But once you get going, it’s fine. I kind of forget the cameras there until Ryan, like, directly looks at me, reminds me that it’s there.

00;50;07;29 – 00;50;14;24
Unknown
So. Yeah. Yes. Thank you for being a guest on thing. Fresh breath. You were great as always. Thank you.

00;50;14;26 – 00;50;16;04
Unknown
Are we swearing on this or now?