Full Transcript of Think Fresh - Episode 22
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you can use the way that these engines present the answers as a hint to how they would want your site to be set up.
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They almost always
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bullets. Include also tables like synthesize things really well.
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that can be a good guide.
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If you’re unsure of how to present your data on your website,
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Hello and welcome to Think Fresh, a podcast brought to you by the Nova marketing collective. Creative. Coming to you from our Ideas Institute and here to talk about all things marketing. Insights on new trends, innovative ideas and marketing tools you can use in your day to day life and whatever else we deem relevant. I’m Jen Neumann, de novo CEO and your host.
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And I’m Ryan, NFL
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head of digital account manager. And your other host.
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Today we’re going to talk about the FAQs of SEO, Geo and AOL.
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That’s a lot of letters. We’ll get into it though. We’ll get into a friend.
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we have to start by welcoming Ali.
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Ali McCullough is our digital strategy lead. And you’re a frequent contributor to Think Fresh. I think this is your fourth appearance. I yeah, I think that’s right. Well, first, just love I just love to hear myself talk. First appearance. Yes. That’s true. At number five you do not get a jacket like on it. So I’m sorry to say that you get a jacket on SNL.
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Unknown
Yeah. Five times you posted for five times. Oh my God. Can I get a pen? No. I will give anyone pens. I love to share my love of stationery with anybody. So pens are weird. I don’t I don’t want your tiny pens perfectly in my hands. But. So, Ali, thank you for joining us, sharing our digital knowledge. Like we said in the opening, we’re talking about SEO, Geo and AOL.
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Unknown
Lots of acronyms. But before we even start talking about that, because this is a sports
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podcast,
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because this is a sports podcast, we
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have to talk about some changes
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and some some fun excitement in the WNBA. The first we have got free agency. So players are moving around like crazy. I didn’t realize it was that dramatic.
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And you both have been following sports for much longer than me.
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But like, teams just change. Like whole teams are just now completely different. Like there you’ve got about three core players that don’t change on the team, but then everyone else just changes this brand new information for you? Apparently. No, truly, it is like this is all very weird and different. And I’m like, wait, how do people even get jerseys with players names on them?
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Because the next season it’s going to be completely different.
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I don’t know what to say to that, right? I just can’t believe you didn’t know this.
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This is my third WNBA season. I am a Caitlin Clark bandwagon band Wagoner and I will say I’ve quickly fallen in love with the Holy. And this is now the third team that my one of my favorites, Erica Wheeler, is now on three teams in three seasons.
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Unknown
It’s like, what’s going on? I don’t get it. I mean, that’s just the way it’s a business, right? And that’s just the way it goes. But at least they’re getting paid. Oh my gosh. So much the same. It’s not the it’s not the same, but it’s light years ahead of where we were even a year ago. So it’s progress.
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Unknown
And while we talked a lot about the WNBA, Artemis, the other one, like I love when we can just.
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Unknown
The world can come together. Yeah, right. Yeah,
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right. No politicians, no influencers, no product placement. We’re not sending Katy Perry up into space. Which, honestly, that was like when you looked at that group that was a B team.
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Unknown
Like, if something happened, we could afford to lose them. So yeah, like, we still have Beyonce, Lady Gaga, like 4 or 5.
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Unknown
Yeah. We’re we’re okay. But yeah like they’re back. They made it. They had to perform three tests or four tests. I think that was the whole point. And then you hear everyone online saying, why couldn’t they just land on the moon?
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Unknown
We already did it with like the power of a, a calculator when Apollo 13 went. But then my friend I was in Tulsa and my friend reminded me, This is Apollo two.
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Unknown
Sorry, this is Artemis two. That means that the next one will be or Artemis three. So we are going to be able to go to the moon in just three missions, whereas last 13 missions. So it’s like, okay, good reminder, good reminder. But the pictures that they sent back I was like was amazing.
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Their comments, everything. It was great.
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Everything was great, except apparently outlook, a conference call and the toilets, which rumor has those toilets were made by a local company here in Cedar Rapids.
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Unknown
But who could they should stick with like rockets, right? Rocket toilets? I don’t know the toilets I did. They fix them though, right? Like they were able to get them working again. Did they have a plumber?
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Unknown
I think that the space plumber. Space plumbers. That’s a movie, right? The, It was the female astronaut that did figure everything out. She fixed it. She’s like, I am not dealing with this shit. Quite literally. I’m done. We are gonna make this work. And she got it working again. And I was like, yes, yes, that’s great. But yes.
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Unknown
And she didn’t have a YouTube video. She could watch the fix it do here. So we got to figure that out. You fix a space twilit. But yes, I’m excited for the the next, the next mission and was just happy to see that everything like they just landed in the middle of the ocean also. And I
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read that if it landed upside down, all of the GPS would be pointing downward.
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So all of their tracking signals would be pointing down into the ocean. So it’s really like a 5050 if they’re going to be able to find them and find them with GPS, they are watching them come down. And no, but luckily they landed upright. But yeah, there’s a lot. It’s space
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is a space. It’s just like it was.
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It was just like a happy moment the humanity needed. So we can we can all agree that there was it was wonderful. Yes, I it was fun to watch. But let’s talk about what we came here for.
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All of our acronyms, our acronym Soup, the excitement of of SEO and EO.
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Unknown
let’s just cover the bases and talk about our three acronyms. Go. There’s a lot. There’s a lot. That’s just the three in this one podcast we’re covering.
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Unknown
I live in nothing but three letter acronyms, but PPC like it’s CTR. It’s all acronyms. It’s all acronyms CVR. I mean, I could go on, but I won’t just these three. Just these three. All right. We’ll start with SEO. And sometimes we’ll see what happens in the office. When Ali and Kim were talking, let’s just like what foreign language happening?
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Unknown
Yes. I have to tell myself not to do that in client meetings. Like, say the words.
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Unknown
let’s start with SEO. This one’s a lot more familiar to a lot of people. So search engine optimization this is essentially all about ranking on search engine results page Google Bing. It’s been around since the internet has started. And so that’s really it’s it’s all about ranking for specific keywords related to either your business or service or a topic that you’re writing about.
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Unknown
Really, it’s it’s about being listed as an option to users searching AIO, which is answer engine optimization, is more about being a single definitive answer to a specific question. And this has actually been around for a little longer than I think a lot of people know.
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Unknown
This was really the rise of voice assistants like Siri and Alexa and even Google’s featured snippets. So those are all technically EO, and that’s been around for years. Right. Featured snippet. Is that like when you go, it’ll like give you a little bit of a response. It’s not necessarily AI now it is correct.
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Unknown
It. So they would just pull out like a sentence or two. Right. That answered your question, but it was directly from a source. They weren’t crafting that. It was just pulled out. Okay.
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Unknown
so that’s really what AOL was. It’s essentially that platform or that logic picking what, what they considered the best answer and then just serving it to you rather than you having to go look,
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Unknown
So generative engine optimization is more like the evolution of answer engine optimization. Instead of being handed a snippet from a specific place, these generative engines are pulling from multiple different sources to be able to synthesize that information and present it to users in a longer form.
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Comprehensive answer. And so the goal of Geo is to be one of the sources being cited by that. So instead of like being the best one now, it’s just like, hey, we want to be in we want to be in the conversation in the suit, if you will. Yeah. Next we’re gonna there’s I had a bunch of questions that came up, but now we’re going to dig into each of these kind of individually.
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Unknown
So we’ve all been hearing about SEO for quite a long time, right. Like we mentioned that that one’s been around since the creation of the internet with Alta Vista and Google search, all of these forerunners in the space.
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Unknown
What is SEO?
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Unknown
So when you think of SEO, I always like to think of it as a pyramid. And so at the bottom of the pyramid is the base, which is your technical SEO.
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Unknown
This is your site being structurally sound and set up correctly to be able to be found by search engines, to be able to show up correctly, to be considered safe for people to view. And and if you don’t have that base, you can’t have anything
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Unknown
like I’ve gone to websites on Google and it’s like this website is not safe.
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Unknown
And usually it’s like their SSL certificate is has lapsed. Yeah. So if it’s if they’ve got HTTP and not Https, you’re going to have some problems, some technical issues. Correct. And then in the middle we have on page SEO.
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Unknown
So that is really looking at the content you’re writing making sure you’re including those keywords, answering questions that people are searching for, making it easily digestible, including bullet points, short form paragraphs, head headings in the correct higher hierarchy.
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Unknown
That’ll get people. Yeah. And so that’s everything that that people can see on your
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Unknown
then at the very top of the pyramid is off site SEO. And so that is back linking. That is business listing social media essentially anywhere where you or either sending people back to your website or just building your brand outside of your website on the internet.
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Unknown
SEO in a nutshell. Yeah. And while we mention SEO in our in our title, this really is about the evolution of SEO, which is getting towards that Geo and the. AOL. So we’ve got SEO covered now. Like, what about Geo? I think of like when I think of Geo, I think of geography. So initially I thought this was all tied to like location, but is it.
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Unknown
No, not at all. Perfect. No.
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Unknown
Like this is not a sports podcast.
00;11;49;19 – 00;11;58;15
Unknown
This is not a sports podcast. And we’re not talking about geography, which is probably a plus for you. Oh yes. If it was geography, I would just be like, well that’s a that’s maps. Right
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Unknown
side note for listeners is horrible at geography. Like he does not know where Marian is from here.
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that way. No, no.
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Unknown
Well we can hop into Geo. So what is it? Right. Similar to SEO, it’s a series of tactics for showing up in a specific place. But in this instance, it is the generative answers from different AI platforms. So that can be the LMS that people are using. ChatGPT is the most popular at this point. We’ve got Gemini, Claude Perplexity, which is technically an AI powered search engine, but works more like the LM in the way that it synthesizes answers.
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Unknown
And then the AI. Overviews on Google are also considered a part of the generative engine optimization
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Unknown
umbrella, which those are getting better. I will say yes, those were pretty bad and they are getting better. AI is advancing very quickly, we all know that. But like
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even the AI overviews are improving, which is.
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one of the key differences in SEO and Geo is what the goal is.
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Unknown
Right? So SEO your goal is to rank on a search engine results page
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Unknown
for Geo. There’s there’s kind of two goals citations and mentions. So mentions a is a little bit harder to get. That is when in the answer your brand or your website is is mentioned specifically within the answer. So this will happen if you are like the definitive source of a stat that they’re mentioning and or if it’s a search, if someone’s looking for the best roofing company in Cedar Rapids, and then they’ll probably going to have a list.
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Unknown
And so then if you’re on that list, that’s a mention. Citations are more common, and that is where they are using your information in their answer. And then have a link to your site wherever it is that they store their links on Gemini,
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Unknown
it’s easy to see they have like the little link subscript and so on. Some platforms it’s easier to find those than others, but that is where the citation comes in and gives people the opportunity to get to your page or get to your website from the generative answer.
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Unknown
And those citations are important because while the AI overviews are improving, sometimes you still need to do a little research, like if it is a decision or if it is. I mean, really just if it sounds too good to be true, click those citations and go check it out because sometimes they’re still wrong or outdated
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Unknown
So when you mentioned the citations and the mentions, how do you know? How do you know if you are getting a citation or a mention?
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Unknown
It’s hard to know. There are more and more tools that are coming out that they consider these AI visibility tools. So
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Unknown
they can kind of tell you if you’re showing up for specific queries. But the thing with AI is that it’s never the same. The answer is never going to be the same. And so when you’re thinking about measuring that, it’s more about probability.
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Unknown
Are you more likely to show up for this query than not? And a lot of times it’s manual. Oh. So
00;15;41;15 – 00;16;16;04
Unknown
You can use these tools to get an idea of what you’re showing up for. But if there’s specific topics or questions that you want to be showing up for, the best way to know is to actually compile a set of questions or like kind of subqueries that would be encompassed in that topic or question, and then manually check it over time to see what the answers are and see if you’re trending more often than not as being one of the citations or mentions.
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Unknown
Sounds like some of the old school strategies of long tail keywords in SEO. Yes, it’s all related. So
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Unknown
how is AI like? We talked about how it’s now summarizing information. We’ve got citations, we’ve got mentions. How is it changing. Like are we seeing drastic number changes when it comes to traffic to websites like fully going to the website like are there are there a lot of changes in that space?
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Unknown
yes, yes and no actually. So in some industries and some content types, they’re seeing a lot more of a decrease already in traffic from organic search. But this has been a trend that’s ongoing. So when we think about
00;17;00;08 – 00;17;15;00
Unknown
when we go back to the answer engine optimization, that’s really where this zero click search came into play. So this was a a user experience push from Google.
00;17;15;00 – 00;17;38;19
Unknown
Google specifically being like we just want to provide you with the answer. But also we don’t want you to leave our site. Yeah. We want you to stay here. We we can serve more ads. Yes. Here. And so that was an answer for getting people to stay on that site aka once they’ve searched no clicks. And so that has
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Unknown
even increased.
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Unknown
That number has increased with the implementation of the AI overviews. So we’re up to 60% of searches on Google ending with clicks and on move on mobile.
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Unknown
On mobile.
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Unknown
And on mobile, that number is even higher up to 77% of searches where someone never clicks a link after they do that initial search.
00;18;09;03 – 00;18;18;24
Unknown
the part to keep in mind there is traffic decreasing the website, but that traffic is what are your hours things that Google can already handle.
00;18;18;24 – 00;18;38;23
Unknown
Or asking baseline questions like this is not potential. They might be potential customers, but they are not looking to make a purchase with these questions. So I think it’s a little bit if we’re thinking about the marketing funnel, which now we’re a flywheel, but if we’re talking like top, top of the funnel, like these questions are, are table stakes, right.
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Unknown
So it’s not like a dire, oh no, our traffic is down on our website because Google also has analytics. They know that people are watching these things. Are they putting anything in place to like track this. Right. Like can you now see that traffic is coming from these engines within Google
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Unknown
Yes definitely. So even though we are seeing a dip in search traffic again, some more than others. We’ve seen some websites losing up to 50% of their search traffic in 2025 compared to 2024,
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Unknown
and some not seeing that decrease at all.
00;19;18;23 – 00;19;36;11
Unknown
But across the board, we’re seeing more traffic from these generative engine platforms. So ChatGPT is at the forefront. That is where most of these are. Most of this traffic is coming from
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Unknown
Our sights on average, actually saw an 1,800% increase in the number of visits from these generative engine platforms, with some growing over 5,000%
00;19;50;03 – 00;19;58;07
Unknown
1,800% increase over former generative responses, or 1,800% increase over traffic in general.
00;19;58;07 – 00;20;12;14
Unknown
So 1,800% from 2024 to 2025. And I didn’t go in and break out which platforms it was. But we in general general increase in traffic.
00;20;12;15 – 00;20;17;03
Unknown
Yes. You know, one thing I think Geo is interesting for is getting
00;20;17;06 – 00;20;42;19
Unknown
idea of what your brand looks like online. And I, I had put a question into AI about agencies in this area and how you would define each one and what the what the, you know, the traits or characteristics of each were. And it’s just interesting, like the results it gave me back where maybe not exactly how I would characterize de novo.
00;20;42;22 – 00;21;04;04
Unknown
And I thought, well, there’s something out there that is giving this impression. It wasn’t bad or anything. It’s just maybe not the way I wanted it to. So in a way, it was almost like this, just that taking the temperature of your brand and, and I think there’s, there’s some value to brands understanding how they are, how they return a GE answer.
00;21;04;05 – 00;21;09;00
Unknown
However, like you said, it can be different every time. So now I’m going to go back and do it again and see if it gives me
00;21;09;04 – 00;21;20;09
Unknown
some other results. And it would be interesting to see across platform. Right. If you ask Gemini versus free were uncomfortable though right. All out.
00;21;20;12 – 00;21;26;10
Unknown
But but you’re right. People might not necessarily realize how llms get their information or how they craft their information.
00;21;26;10 – 00;21;31;24
Unknown
And you don’t realize what goes into the the soup, if you will. Why do I keep talking about a soup? I don’t know,
00;21;31;24 – 00;21;43;06
Unknown
but it is also, it’s kind of funny, like a somebody can Google their own website and it returns a competitor’s ad and they might freak out about things like that. It’s the same thing, like, don’t freak out.
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Unknown
Just because you didn’t get served that ad doesn’t mean that they’re not running thing.
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Unknown
that’s the internet, right? Like algorithmically based like there are a lot of factors that go into it and your internet searches the same way. Even before AoE Geo, your internet search would be very different from mine because it’s trained on trained on the things you’re interested in.
00;22;05;00 – 00;22;20;22
Unknown
Google wants to give you the information that you want because they’re a product and they want you to stay on Google. They don’t want you to get mad and be like, I’m switching to Bing or I’m switching to Yahoo. They want to to be catered and customized to you, which is all the same as it has been for for a decade.
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Unknown
And to be fair to Google, 90% of searches are still happening there.
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Unknown
So even though we are seeing these these huge jumps in this traffic, it’s still just just a fraction of of the sources that we’re getting traffic from.
00;22;36;12 – 00;22;44;28
Unknown
Obviously, we expect this to grow and, and see a little bit more of an evening out as things go.
00;22;44;28 – 00;22;48;28
Unknown
But Google’s still got a hold of us.
00;22;49;02 – 00;22;57;03
Unknown
Google’s always kind of bend the top dog in search. There was DuckDuckGo trying to sneak its way in, and now we’re all worried about perplexity.
00;22;57;05 – 00;23;03;14
Unknown
ChatGPT I think in your predictions for 2026, it was mentioned that ChatGPT would have ads like
00;23;03;18 – 00;23;22;20
Unknown
ads are a major revenue source for Google, right? So they’re going to have to figure something out. They’re gonna I don’t know if they’ll ever say, hey, if you want to be a mention or if you want to be a citation, maybe we’ll upgrade your citation to a mention if you asked amount like it’s going to evolve to be at that level.
00;23;22;21 – 00;23;45;07
Unknown
Yeah. Well and if you think about it, if their goal is zero click searches, how are you going to. And generally Google ads are pay per click. So if you’re getting people to not click, where are you getting your money. So I think that’ll be interesting to see.
00;23;45;10 – 00;24;03;24
Unknown
That’s actually what I got stood for. But you know, is that sort of the same thing where it’s you’re asking it to make a decision for you and that’s zero click in a way. Is that do you think that’s an evolution? Is there a paid strategy potentially behind that coming.
00;24;03;27 – 00;24;07;14
Unknown
I don’t know. We’re going to we’re going to study that.
00;24;07;17 – 00;24;32;15
Unknown
Yes. Yeah. And I think wait and we’ll report back later. Yes. When it happens. So well with the whole agent side of things like there’s there’s one form of agents that’s using APIs and never actually going to these websites. But if the site doesn’t have an API or a way to connect to it, these agents are physically going to a website, and then all of a sudden, if they are clicking a link from Google, who’s being charged for that, right?
00;24;32;19 – 00;24;43;10
Unknown
Am I is my company getting charged when a bot clicks my clicks my ad like that’s something that we’ve always been talking about. And I think that that just continues the conversation and continues that, like, that’s
00;24;43;14 – 00;24;53;06
Unknown
also something we’re going to keep our eye on. I mean, we’ve seen what happens when, you know, bots are visiting websites and suddenly website traffic spikes because it’s not real traffic, right.
00;24;53;09 – 00;25;10;15
Unknown
That potentially has the same thing that that could happen that could, could cost advertisers and I think will quickly correct itself when it happens because it would have to. But you know, you’re right. Right. And I would bet that that does, you know, enter the ecosystem here at some point
00;25;10;15 – 00;25;16;09
Unknown
in time. Yeah. And we already over the course of a month
00;25;16;12 – 00;25;23;24
Unknown
from Google when we’re running Google ads, they’re constantly crediting us refunding for.
00;25;23;27 – 00;25;45;06
Unknown
word traffic. I mean yeah, like illegitimate traffic. Yeah. Yeah. And so they know they, they do know when that is happening. And so, you know, it might be a $4 refund here and $5 there. But it is something that is already on their radar.
00;25;45;06 – 00;25;49;12
Unknown
What would be interesting is ChatGPT rolls out ads what that looks like.
00;25;49;15 – 00;25;57;18
Unknown
So it kind of all comes back to users finding their information. It’s just an evolution. And from what you were saying those are pretty different right? Like
00;25;57;24 – 00;26;06;11
Unknown
are there similarities. Are there similarities in this space or is it like, no, you have to have a SEO and a geo strategy or is there some overlap between them?
00;26;06;13 – 00;26;14;15
Unknown
There’s a lot of overlap. There is a lot of overlap, especially on the technical side. So
00;26;14;18 – 00;26;23;28
Unknown
for both AOL and Geo, you you have to have that strong technical base. You have to be able or indexable. Whichever
00;26;23;28 – 00;26;31;18
Unknown
term you want to use, you have to allow these agents and these crawlers to come to your site
00;26;31;21 – 00;26;34;02
Unknown
or invite them because you can block them, right?
00;26;34;03 – 00;26;44;16
Unknown
Or ish. Why? Why did we why do we say so? Robots.txt is
00;26;44;19 – 00;27;10;14
Unknown
a really important file that you add to your site. That essentially is a guide map for robots crawlers to know where to go on your site and where not to go. And you can disallow certain traffic or certain bots from going to your site, but they don’t have to listen.
00;27;10;14 – 00;27;16;25
Unknown
So you are not welcome, correct? Okay, right. You won’t go. We won’t come check it out.
00;27;17;00 – 00;27;26;02
Unknown
To this day when somebody talks about robots and I’m going to date myself here, it just makes me think of the Jetsons all the time. All. Oh,
00;27;26;04 – 00;27;35;21
Unknown
no. I’m picturing. Who was that? Susie. Sally. Rosie. Rosie. Rosie. Susie. Sally. Rosie have to follow the rules, right?
00;27;35;22 – 00;27;40;29
Unknown
But generally they do. And so
00;27;41;02 – 00;28;00;15
Unknown
that’s one of the key things to make sure you have set up. And like I said, you can actually encourage specific traffic to come to your site through that. So there are ways that you can set it up for each. It gets a little excessive to be honest, but each of these platforms to say, hey, you’re allowed.
00;28;00;17 – 00;28;23;20
Unknown
And then that just gives them a little bit greener of a light to come and check out what’s on your site. Structured data is still very important for both things. So not to get too technical, but that’s setting things up with schema, which is a markup that essentially just tells those crawlers this is exactly what this content is about.
00;28;23;20 – 00;28;26;19
Unknown
And it’s formatted in this way.
00;28;26;21 – 00;28;29;26
Unknown
Like your events get pulled into. Right, right, right.
00;28;30;00 – 00;28;44;20
Unknown
There’s FAQ schema. There’s like location schema. So there’s a lot of different things. And these are already well established markups that are generally put in automatically through a lot of builders.
00;28;44;20 – 00;29;14;22
Unknown
So security still very important. Mobile first and just in general, your technical performance. So site speed, things like that are still really important for all of these tactics EOG, OCO, E8, which I know we’ve talked about in the past, eat the experience expertise authority ness, not authoritarian. And trustworthiness
00;29;14;22 – 00;29;15;26
Unknown
is very important.
00;29;15;26 – 00;29;33;06
Unknown
Even more so when it comes to G.L., because they are looking for the authority on a specific topic. They have so many things that they can choose from to pull information. So they are really looking for the
00;29;33;08 – 00;29;38;08
Unknown
highest authority so that they can present the best Ancer
00;29;38;10 – 00;29;42;21
Unknown
because those platforms, those engines, they present the information as an authority figure.
00;29;42;21 – 00;30;13;06
Unknown
So they’re just looking to steal some. But they but they have to there has to be back up to it. Right. You can’t just be like like your dad just stating it. Right? Right. Great confidence of a white male, right? Yes. No. This is actual. Yes. Authority. As in we can prove through bios, through statistics that, you know, we are experts on this, that we have the data and we’re not just saying things and sounding confident about it.
00;30;13;09 – 00;30;40;18
Unknown
Another way that SEO and Geo are similar is just making sure that you’re creating original content that serves a need, generally longer form, but making it really easily digestible. So you want to completely cover a topic, but break it down in a way that someone can skim and scan that it’s it’s not just a block of text that
00;30;40;20 – 00;30;43;08
Unknown
someone’s going to look at and go, nope.
00;30;43;10 – 00;30;47;27
Unknown
And back right out of there. So that includes I think I mentioned this earlier with SEO
00;30;47;27 – 00;30;52;15
Unknown
bullet points. Tables can be really important if you have that kind of data
00;30;52;19 – 00;31;11;23
Unknown
G.L. loves to pull in tables, so that can be really helpful on the geo side as well. And especially like like you said, when you see a wall of text you’re like, no thank you. No thank you. And you might be thinking like, oh, well, these bots like they, they don’t think that way, but they want to recreate the experience of a search.
00;31;11;23 – 00;31;17;18
Unknown
So they’re looking for sites that are optimizing for skim ability even though they don’t need things skim.
00;31;17;21 – 00;31;18;13
Unknown
And I think
00;31;18;16 – 00;31;27;10
Unknown
you can use the way that these engines present the answers as a hint to how they would want your site to be set up.
00;31;27;10 – 00;31;35;11
Unknown
They almost always include bullets. Include also tables like synthesize things really well.
00;31;35;11 – 00;31;38;08
Unknown
I think that can be a good guide.
00;31;38;08 – 00;31;42;14
Unknown
If you’re unsure of how to present your data on your website,
00;31;42;17 – 00;31;47;19
Unknown
that’s a really like not easy. But like that’s a very practical
00;31;47;21 – 00;31;58;21
Unknown
like tip. Like when you said like, check out how your brand comes up on these engines. But just like check out how your competition is also coming up and like seeing how it’s presenting the information.
00;31;58;24 – 00;32;09;28
Unknown
So so going back we just wanted to touch back on like how do these different, how do these acronyms differ in in the world of marketing? Because there’s a ton of them and it’s
00;32;10;03 – 00;32;12;28
Unknown
it’s hard for the average marketer to keep up.
00;32;13;03 – 00;32;21;17
Unknown
So, you know, my favorite acronym is so would you please explain these in a WTF format for me?
00;32;21;17 – 00;32;24;25
Unknown
Yeah. So there are some ways that
00;32;24;25 – 00;32;43;22
Unknown
the tactics we use for these do vary. So when we’re thinking about what we’re optimizing for SEO versus Geo, a lot of it is coming down to site ability over click ability. So for Geo we want we want to be able we want to have the
00;32;43;25 – 00;32;52;06
Unknown
the hard statistics, the unique information that only we can provide that they then want to include in their answer.
00;32;52;08 – 00;32;54;23
Unknown
For SEO, we want to
00;32;54;26 – 00;33;08;19
Unknown
essentially be clickable, right? Like we want to show up and get someone to click on our we want to rank. And so that is one of the key differences in in the way we would come at this technically
00;33;08;22 – 00;33;18;27
Unknown
if you were. Well it is your job to do. How do you break down from a resource perspective how you’re spending time and
00;33;18;27 – 00;33;21;04
Unknown
prioritizing SEO versus Geo?
00;33;21;04 – 00;33;43;10
Unknown
Because a lot of the tactics are similar to overlap that affect both. But are there tactics that really, you know, are very specific to SEO or very specific to Geo that you have to balance out because there’s not, you know, unlimited time in the world and unlimited budget for clients. How do you break that out and prioritize that?
00;33;43;15 – 00;33;55;03
Unknown
That’s a really good question. I would if you’re say you’re starting completely new, you have nothing already created. SEO would come first.
00;33;55;03 – 00;34;10;18
Unknown
If you are, you have a solid SEO foundation established. This is where I would switch my focus to more of the geo tactics, trying to optimize specifically for that.
00;34;10;20 – 00;34;42;04
Unknown
You will not hurt your SEO by doing this. As long as you continue to incorporate everything you’ve already done for SEO, it’ll actually probably only help. You can still create these answers to these questions while including the keywords that you’re trying to rank for. And so that would be my priority. And that’s what we’re doing with our clients, right?
00;34;42;05 – 00;34;58;15
Unknown
We we have the C.O. Foundation, both technical and not. And so now what we’re really doing is trying to build upon that, to capture that geo
00;34;58;18 – 00;35;08;06
Unknown
things like the top of the pyramid that you referred to, the backlinks, the social media, things that drive people back to your website. Do those affect Geo a
00;35;08;08 – 00;35;14;13
Unknown
They can. It really depends on what kind of link back it is.
00;35;14;15 – 00;35;19;22
Unknown
Read it for instance, seems to show up. Yes. In generative. Yes,
00;35;19;25 – 00;35;25;12
Unknown
Reddit and Reddit is huge in general. I mean, we know that Google has been prioritizing Reddit.
00;35;25;15 – 00;35;28;21
Unknown
That changed. It has changed search. Yes,
00;35;28;21 – 00;35;35;29
Unknown
there’s scouring multiple, multiple sites for the answer to their question or the answer to your question. And
00;35;36;04 – 00;35;56;01
Unknown
so if it’s seeing your name popping up over and over again, that just builds on your authority. And so even if it’s someone mentioning you on Reddit or if you’re in a list of best offs, right, that’s just going to build that authoritative and let them know that you you do know what you’re talking about.
00;35;56;01 – 00;36;00;06
Unknown
And like, you can be trusted as, as a source.
00;36;00;09 – 00;36;08;20
Unknown
So that top level, that’s where that’s pulling in like your backlinks. Right. And and to be honest, the the backlinks themselves are less important
00;36;08;20 – 00;36;23;17
Unknown
because it’s not just looking at links, they’re still important. But for geo they’re reading the content and their understanding. This person is this. And so they’re still able to build it upon, even just mentions.
00;36;23;20 – 00;36;36;10
Unknown
You mentioned like the the optimization for site ability over clickable right. Like are there other tactics, if you will, that fall into this geo space that we can cover in a top line? Yes. Top level
00;36;36;10 – 00;36;45;25
Unknown
sense. Yeah. So one of the one of the things that we’ve really focused on is building out more question related content.
00;36;45;25 – 00;36;46;21
Unknown
So
00;36;46;23 – 00;37;14;29
Unknown
whether that is using question style headings or incorporating more FAQs actually onto our website, and not just kind of a jumble of FAQs on its own separate page, right. Like we think more of FAQs as summarizing what’s already on the site in a way that is easily.
00;37;15;01 – 00;37;17;27
Unknown
Digestible. Yeah.
00;37;18;00 – 00;37;33;13
Unknown
Just by giving a really straightforward answer to a question in the way that people are generally speaking to these engines can help build that geo experience. So that’s one of the things that we’re focusing on
00;37;33;13 – 00;37;40;23
Unknown
adding a summary or a TLDR at either the top or the end,
00;37;40;25 – 00;37;43;28
Unknown
the top or the bottom of content can be really helpful.
00;37;44;00 – 00;38;04;18
Unknown
It just gives it a summary, essentially, that it’s like, if you just want to pull this like here, here it is, you know. Yeah. And that also helps with aiyo, if we’re still, you know, we still want to not forget about each, even though really it eventually will probably be
00;38;04;21 – 00;38;10;23
Unknown
taken consumed by Geo and then one of the other.
00;38;10;25 – 00;38;13;09
Unknown
Really not easy but
00;38;13;14 – 00;38;25;10
Unknown
high level tactics is giving the answers to your questions right away. We do not want to bury the lead, right? So question style heading headings answer right underneath
00;38;25;15 – 00;38;39;00
Unknown
had been true heading headings H1 right two three. Well you wouldn’t want it to. Maybe not H2 and H3. Yeah. But like truly using the headings because that’s how that’s SEO right.
00;38;39;00 – 00;38;40;25
Unknown
But that’s the foundation. That’s the foundation.
00;38;41;01 – 00;38;50;24
Unknown
we’ve got the SEO base. And now the next step is Geo. Have we been doing that? How have we been doing that for our clients and how we rolling out Geo the next level of
00;38;50;24 – 00;39;03;07
Unknown
of services. Yeah. So generally we’re starting with an audit looking at what that AI visibility is for that site, getting some
00;39;03;10 – 00;39;18;10
Unknown
more data from some of those tools that I was mentioning that you can get, but also doing our own searches and seeing, you know, are we showing up for any of these and then implementing a lot of the things I was just mentioning, looking at ways that we can
00;39;18;10 – 00;39;38;07
Unknown
improve the question answer format or how we can really optimize FAQs, build on that authority, provide that kind of information that it’s looking for. So that’s something that we are actively doing with our clients right now. And so I’m excited to see how that turns
00;39;38;09 – 00;39;49;24
Unknown
we covered a lot of acronyms. We covered a lot of information. If you had to boil this all down into one key takeaway, almost your summary of everything that happened. How would you do that?
00;39;49;24 – 00;39;58;11
Unknown
When it comes down to it, the short answer is SEO is about visibility. EO is about brevity, about providing.
00;39;58;18 – 00;40;24;28
Unknown
Here is a one sentence answer to this question. And Joe is about authority. So if you want to think of it more in a metaphor, metaphorical sense, SEO is like a library catalog. You want to be listed as one of the sources or one of the options in that catalog. EO is like a fact sheet. It just provides you the information.
00;40;24;28 – 00;40;42;00
Unknown
You take it and you do what you will with it. And Geo is more like an expert witness. They’re going to come in and they’re going to tell you everything they know because they’re the authority on it, and you have to believe them.
00;40;42;03 – 00;40;51;09
Unknown
Yes. Just some just some hallucinations. And that’s why we check our sources.
00;40;51;12 – 00;40;53;29
Unknown
And is one more important than the other?
00;40;54;01 – 00;41;07;14
Unknown
They all play a role. And obviously it’s going to change. Its changed since we last spoke on this. And so right now we don’t want to give up on any of them.
00;41;07;14 – 00;41;08;22
Unknown
SEO is not dead.
00;41;08;24 – 00;41;15;24
Unknown
Unfortunately. I’m sorry everyone. People just love to predict. They do
00;41;15;26 – 00;41;30;10
Unknown
predict the death of something they do. Marketers love to just be able to be like. And today we’re going to talk about the death of SEO, how Geo and are taking over SEO have predicted the death of email over and over again, and I have been consistently wrong.
00;41;30;16 – 00;41;50;13
Unknown
So I’m going to stop making death predictions at this point in time. The only thing those statements are good for is social media clips and fake headlines. So you know what clip that and use that as our social clip. SEO is dead, said no one. There you go, said everyone. But they’re wrong.
00;41;50;16 – 00;41;53;09
Unknown
So yeah, none. None more important than the other.
00;41;53;09 – 00;41;56;25
Unknown
But all things that need to be taken into consideration
00;41;56;27 – 00;42;11;17
Unknown
I think, I think you have to design the strategy, like in our case for the client. Right. There might be a client like you said, that it’s coming in new with no authority established, no basis of SEO. Like you’re going to spend more time on the south side of things.
00;42;11;18 – 00;42;25;01
Unknown
We have clients who are, you know, very established, have had web and solid web presence in SEO for years. We’re going to focus a little bit more on the Geo. So it really does. It comes down to goals and the stage of life in the business.
00;42;25;01 – 00;42;32;29
Unknown
and we don’t work with a lot of like publishing companies or anything like that.
00;42;32;29 – 00;42;36;13
Unknown
But it also depends on what type of website you have. Right.
00;42;36;15 – 00;42;48;08
Unknown
just understanding, honestly understanding your audience and knowing how they’re using the internet to find you is always going to be the number one. Never change it. Never.
00;42;48;11 – 00;42;55;05
Unknown
It’s about human behavior and how you deliver according to what human behavior can expect, predict, be comfortable with.
00;42;55;10 – 00;43;07;13
Unknown
I love it. Thank you Ali. But before we let you go. Will you join us for creative briefs? Sure. I love it. What if she said no? What if I said no? Oh, God. We’ll say
00;43;07;16 – 00;43;14;02
Unknown
Okay, so now it’s time for our segment called Creative Briefs. This is where we dig into a marketing campaign a concept idea.
00;43;14;02 – 00;43;24;04
Unknown
And we talk about the insights that we can glean from their marketing moves. And before we even start on this month’s creative brief I want to talk about last month.
00;43;24;06 – 00;43;34;23
Unknown
Do you remember what last month was? Not really. It was Burger King. Oh, the Burger King campaign. My God, I forgot. And this just proves marketing works. Obviously we know that, but marketing works.
00;43;34;23 – 00;43;54;20
Unknown
That was the campaign where they were like, we we we were wrong. We’re sorry. Like, we’ve we’ve done better. We promised. I went to Burger King that that next weekend. It was great. It was great. It was fast. It was very clean. The burger and all the food that we got looked pretty. It literally looked like a commercial.
00;43;54;22 – 00;44;04;11
Unknown
And you made a video that you shared with all of us. And I will say the burger looked good. It did. You looked ridiculous with your crown. They give me a crown too. Well,
00;44;04;14 – 00;44;05;19
Unknown
of course, of course.
00;44;05;21 – 00;44;11;18
Unknown
coincidence? We have another food based creative brief. We are very food focused people.
00;44;11;20 – 00;44;23;24
Unknown
Yes, we spoiler behind the scenes. We had to briefly pause to get a Jimmy John’s order. And because we’ve got. We’ve got some meetings. But Jen, break down our next food based creative brief. Okay,
00;44;23;25 – 00;44;32;26
Unknown
so I heard this on NPR and it is the the snack tax that as parents we often impose on our children. So for us it was the French fry tax.
00;44;32;26 – 00;44;49;16
Unknown
If I was getting French fries through the drive thru window before it got passed to the back, which I was totally giving them to shut them up, I would open it and I would take out a couple fries and say French fry tax, and I would pass it to the girls in the back and they are just accustomed to paying their French fry tax.
00;44;49;22 – 00;44;54;03
Unknown
Doug likes a pie tax. You know, whatever it is we parents
00;44;54;05 – 00;45;02;07
Unknown
with in common on Easter as well as Halloween, like, oh, Easter. Like, yeah, I like that ears off that bunny. That was the tax.
00;45;02;09 – 00;45;13;08
Unknown
Absolutely. So I’m a big tax and spend kind of kind of person then when it comes to food. So so this was definitely clever the way they’re doing this.
00;45;13;08 – 00;45;21;28
Unknown
So the idea is goldfish which are those like very I think they’re delicious cheeky little crackers. They don’t taste like real cheese but nope. They’re
00;45;22;00 – 00;45;30;11
Unknown
not supposed to say I don’t think they’re supposed to. Different thing. The snack that smiles back. Yeah, kind of like I mean, you were like, they kind of like, achieve it in a fish form.
00;45;30;12 – 00;45;31;22
Unknown
Also delicious, right?
00;45;31;27 – 00;45;54;22
Unknown
So basically they’re saying you can file a tax return for the snack tax on April 15th. That doesn’t go live until April 15th. And you can apply, I think, for two bags of goldfish, which I think are for your children, but I think I would tax the tax. Yeah. Before giving that to anybody else. And also my children are grown.
00;45;54;23 – 00;45;55;22
Unknown
So you
00;45;55;26 – 00;46;04;01
Unknown
know you have a lot of back taxes to taxes. Okay. What is like I think I’m owed
00;46;04;04 – 00;46;25;16
Unknown
just thought that was a really clever campaign. But then when I went to search for it, the search results did not give me goldfish as actual site. It gave me a lot of the PR around it, like they did a great job with the PR side of it, and it was sending me to some outlets that I probably would not normally get my news from, like people and parade.
00;46;25;18 – 00;46;46;25
Unknown
Yeah, no thank you. Did not want to click on those and get subjected to that. But it was interesting that that just didn’t come up in the search results. Even in the, you know, the Gemini overview at the top. It did not give me that. It did also offer me several videos. But again, they were not from, you know, the Goldfish Company or whatever their parent company is.
00;46;46;25 – 00;47;08;17
Unknown
So but they do have the site live. And so today is this is being recorded on April 14th, day before tax day. So I think it rolls out tomorrow. And I’ll be really curious to see if there’s buzz about it. You know, are people talking about it and how many people participate if they share that information. But is that from a creative standpoint?
00;47;08;17 – 00;47;09;01
Unknown
I really
00;47;09;05 – 00;47;39;05
Unknown
liked that. Yeah, people like it’s taxis and we know about that. And through the powers of technology, can we see the current site as as it stands like like you said, it’s magic, the parent tax return. But if you read the fine print, come back on April 15th at 415 to file your taxes. Yes. So I think that this is a a great opportunity for them to stay relevant in tax season like they had the Super Bowl or they had the Rose Bowl parade.
00;47;39;09 – 00;48;01;16
Unknown
They had a little tiny RC car, world’s smallest parade float. And they’re doing this as well. They are I wonder why. 4:15 p.m. is that when taxes are due, it might be 415. That would have been clever to go for 20, but oh, for 15 on for 15. Oh, when we talk it through there’s there’s layers of meaning.
00;48;01;21 – 00;48;20;13
Unknown
I don’t know, that could be the actual tax deadline to which would be a good way to remember 415 on 415 if you are in one time zone. True. That’s true. Correct. So but it says it’s almost time to file your parent tax return. So, you know, and I don’t know if this is a one day thing.
00;48;20;15 – 00;48;24;04
Unknown
I mean, they can’t run this if they’re really giving you
00;48;24;10 – 00;48;37;27
Unknown
even one bag of goldfish, much less I think I heard, too. Yeah, I saw that too. You know, they can’t they can’t give away that many. So I imagine it is maybe product limited and probably a one day thing. So. And I will not remember to go do
00;48;37;27 – 00;48;38;02
Unknown
it.
00;48;38;03 – 00;48;49;08
Unknown
Yeah, it’s a fun promotion. And I think that the other piece of this is it’s reminding people that goldfish exists. Right. Like, if this is not a common snack that you give to your kids, like,
00;48;49;11 – 00;48;55;28
Unknown
you don’t even have to have children to get goldfish, like they are not an expensive treat, snack, etc. like they’re cheaper than Cheez-Its.
00;48;55;29 – 00;48;56;09
Unknown
I always
00;48;56;11 – 00;49;03;19
Unknown
gave them to my kids when they broke up with a boy in high school, because there’s other fish in the sea. So okay, that was my little tradition.
00;49;03;19 – 00;49;15;29
Unknown
I have a cat that loves them. Cats also love goldfish. Oh, and that because they like fish. I don’t think that’s why they know. Because Bella likes cheese. Oh, they like the fake cheese.
00;49;16;04 – 00;49;21;07
Unknown
She’ll also steal a Cheeto. So until it was disgusting. Generally.
00;49;21;10 – 00;49;32;12
Unknown
And they’ve done a few of these stunts or promotions in the past. Like I think that they are really trying to remind adults, millennials that have kids now, like they want to remind them that they exist.
00;49;32;12 – 00;49;55;09
Unknown
In 2024, they had a online only promo where they renamed from goldfish to Chilean sea bass. So they’re just doing these stunts because that is a common tactic, like renaming carp or certain fish to other things. Right. And then they also tried to roll out a few other flavors to like old Bay goldfish,
00;49;55;10 – 00;49;58;19
Unknown
Frank’s Red Hot goldfish. Rainbow ones are cute.
00;49;58;21 – 00;50;19;10
Unknown
Yes they were. They were clever. Yeah, they taste the same. Yeah. So. And they, they were able to use like they, they rolled out some new colors, but they were still healthy. Like it wasn’t red dye 40. They were like, oh, we used beat something for this, dye me for maybe we’re going to need a producers note on that later.
00;50;19;11 – 00;50;45;23
Unknown
Is
00;50;45;25 – 00;50;47;02
Unknown
Jen, what do you think?
00;50;47;02 – 00;50;51;12
Unknown
Was this a successful promotion? At the end of the day, I don’t know.
00;50;51;14 – 00;51;08;26
Unknown
I’m going to have to come back and get my answer on next month’s podcast. If you’ll remind me, I will check. I think it really depends. Like I said, I thought it was really weird that it it seemed to roll out in more of a PR fashion and didn’t drive people back freely to the site, at least not from the search results.
00;51;08;26 – 00;51;16;09
Unknown
I saw it and it seemed like odd media outlets. So. And it was a lot of like smaller, like NPR affiliates too.
00;51;16;13 – 00;51;23;24
Unknown
Well, the I think this this is perfect because you mentioned search, right. And what we kind of talked about today, it’s not immediate.
00;51;23;27 – 00;51;26;18
Unknown
Why why wasn’t this pulling up in search results.
00;51;26;21 – 00;51;40;02
Unknown
Well, I was going to say it did show up in the AI overview for me. Oh. Oh, I thought you said it. Didn’t know it did, but it didn’t. It still didn’t pay. It didn’t offer me. Oh the link. Right, right. It just said basically it is happening.
00;51;40;05 – 00;51;45;02
Unknown
Gotcha. Gotcha answered. But it just didn’t
00;51;45;09 – 00;51;52;09
Unknown
like maybe for something like this where they’re spinning up a site where there maybe that’s a little harder.
00;51;52;09 – 00;52;12;26
Unknown
I mean, it could be that there’s not a lot of content right there. And SEO is needs content and geo needs it. So if they’re not going to link to this, they’re probably getting their that information from those other sources that you are also talking about.
00;52;13;03 – 00;52;37;29
Unknown
Where did we get this link? The this link came from inside the people article okay. They’re basically using. So it’s possible this isn’t even listed as indexable. Yeah. Might not be indexable or this is a a back linking strategy somehow as well. They’re getting a little bit of juice from people from all these other places. I think we might be giving them a little too much power.
00;52;38;01 – 00;52;54;01
Unknown
And admittedly, this was a fast campaign. This is a pretty fast campaign. You don’t have time to read it. Like, how fast was it? That’s true. We don’t know. They couldn’t plan for all these things. We don’t know. Yeah. I mean, it doesn’t we don’t even know what it’s going to be. This website might be completely different. It might be more than just a form.
00;52;54;01 – 00;52;59;08
Unknown
It might have celebrity endorsements. I’ll be like, who knows, tomorrow we’ll find out tomorrow.
00;52;59;11 – 00;53;04;20
Unknown
Exciting. So tune in next month because we will then cover the goldfish snack tax.
00;53;04;20 – 00;53;21;08
Unknown
that was create a brief. But before we go, Ali, thank you for again being a recurring guest on on Pink Fresh. Thank you for joining us. Thank you for dropping goldfish. And thank you for explaining all things SEO, Geo, PPC, all of it. We didn’t cover all of it, but thank
00;53;21;11 – 00;53;22;23
Unknown
T
00;53;22;25 – 00;53;24;08
Unknown
I love it, I love it.
00;53;24;13 – 00;53;35;29
Unknown
Bye, everybody. And remember you can now watch think fresh. So if you are just subscribed on your podcast app you can go to YouTube and the other platforms where you watch Think Fresh and and check us all out.
00;53;35;29 – 00;53;45;07
Unknown
You can see us in person, you can see us cover the creative briefs and make sure you subscribe. Thanks everyone. Bye
00;53;45;09 – 00;57;58;25
Unknown
Are we swearing on this or now?
00;57;58;27 – 00;58;13;29
Unknown
I have a Biel. I have a blatt. Blow avocado wrap. I have a black wrap, but I don’t have a side to go with it. Black. Black. All right. What, am I
Unknown
you can use the way that these engines present the answers as a hint to how they would want your site to be set up.
00;00;08;27 – 00;00;10;04
Unknown
They almost always
00;00;10;07 – 00;00;16;08
Unknown
bullets. Include also tables like synthesize things really well.
00;00;16;08 – 00;00;18;09
Unknown
that can be a good guide.
00;00;18;09 – 00;00;26;01
Unknown
If you’re unsure of how to present your data on your website,
00;00;26;04 – 00;00;47;07
Unknown
Hello and welcome to Think Fresh, a podcast brought to you by the Nova marketing collective. Creative. Coming to you from our Ideas Institute and here to talk about all things marketing. Insights on new trends, innovative ideas and marketing tools you can use in your day to day life and whatever else we deem relevant. I’m Jen Neumann, de novo CEO and your host.
00;00;47;09 – 00;00;48;15
Unknown
And I’m Ryan, NFL
00;00;48;23 – 00;00;52;04
Unknown
head of digital account manager. And your other host.
00;00;52;06 – 00;00;57;12
Unknown
Today we’re going to talk about the FAQs of SEO, Geo and AOL.
00;00;57;14 – 00;01;01;00
Unknown
That’s a lot of letters. We’ll get into it though. We’ll get into a friend.
00;01;01;02 – 00;01;02;26
Unknown
we have to start by welcoming Ali.
00;01;02;27 – 00;01;24;25
Unknown
Ali McCullough is our digital strategy lead. And you’re a frequent contributor to Think Fresh. I think this is your fourth appearance. I yeah, I think that’s right. Well, first, just love I just love to hear myself talk. First appearance. Yes. That’s true. At number five you do not get a jacket like on it. So I’m sorry to say that you get a jacket on SNL.
00;01;24;26 – 00;01;50;17
Unknown
Yeah. Five times you posted for five times. Oh my God. Can I get a pen? No. I will give anyone pens. I love to share my love of stationery with anybody. So pens are weird. I don’t I don’t want your tiny pens perfectly in my hands. But. So, Ali, thank you for joining us, sharing our digital knowledge. Like we said in the opening, we’re talking about SEO, Geo and AOL.
00;01;50;19 – 00;01;55;02
Unknown
Lots of acronyms. But before we even start talking about that, because this is a sports
00;01;55;05 – 00;01;56;23
Unknown
podcast,
00;01;56;26 – 00;01;58;02
Unknown
because this is a sports podcast, we
00;01;58;03 – 00;01;59;12
Unknown
have to talk about some changes
00;01;59;17 – 00;02;09;22
Unknown
and some some fun excitement in the WNBA. The first we have got free agency. So players are moving around like crazy. I didn’t realize it was that dramatic.
00;02;09;25 – 00;02;14;01
Unknown
And you both have been following sports for much longer than me.
00;02;14;04 – 00;02;33;28
Unknown
But like, teams just change. Like whole teams are just now completely different. Like there you’ve got about three core players that don’t change on the team, but then everyone else just changes this brand new information for you? Apparently. No, truly, it is like this is all very weird and different. And I’m like, wait, how do people even get jerseys with players names on them?
00;02;33;28 – 00;02;37;13
Unknown
Because the next season it’s going to be completely different.
00;02;37;15 – 00;02;41;15
Unknown
I don’t know what to say to that, right? I just can’t believe you didn’t know this.
00;02;41;19 – 00;02;56;15
Unknown
This is my third WNBA season. I am a Caitlin Clark bandwagon band Wagoner and I will say I’ve quickly fallen in love with the Holy. And this is now the third team that my one of my favorites, Erica Wheeler, is now on three teams in three seasons.
00;02;56;15 – 00;03;21;03
Unknown
It’s like, what’s going on? I don’t get it. I mean, that’s just the way it’s a business, right? And that’s just the way it goes. But at least they’re getting paid. Oh my gosh. So much the same. It’s not the it’s not the same, but it’s light years ahead of where we were even a year ago. So it’s progress.
00;03;21;06 – 00;03;27;26
Unknown
And while we talked a lot about the WNBA, Artemis, the other one, like I love when we can just.
00;03;27;27 – 00;03;30;01
Unknown
The world can come together. Yeah, right. Yeah,
00;03;30;04 – 00;03;41;10
Unknown
right. No politicians, no influencers, no product placement. We’re not sending Katy Perry up into space. Which, honestly, that was like when you looked at that group that was a B team.
00;03;41;10 – 00;03;49;00
Unknown
Like, if something happened, we could afford to lose them. So yeah, like, we still have Beyonce, Lady Gaga, like 4 or 5.
00;03;49;01 – 00;04;02;13
Unknown
Yeah. We’re we’re okay. But yeah like they’re back. They made it. They had to perform three tests or four tests. I think that was the whole point. And then you hear everyone online saying, why couldn’t they just land on the moon?
00;04;02;15 – 00;04;15;08
Unknown
We already did it with like the power of a, a calculator when Apollo 13 went. But then my friend I was in Tulsa and my friend reminded me, This is Apollo two.
00;04;15;10 – 00;04;33;04
Unknown
Sorry, this is Artemis two. That means that the next one will be or Artemis three. So we are going to be able to go to the moon in just three missions, whereas last 13 missions. So it’s like, okay, good reminder, good reminder. But the pictures that they sent back I was like was amazing.
00;04;33;06 – 00;04;35;25
Unknown
Their comments, everything. It was great.
00;04;35;25 – 00;04;45;20
Unknown
Everything was great, except apparently outlook, a conference call and the toilets, which rumor has those toilets were made by a local company here in Cedar Rapids.
00;04;45;25 – 00;04;56;15
Unknown
But who could they should stick with like rockets, right? Rocket toilets? I don’t know the toilets I did. They fix them though, right? Like they were able to get them working again. Did they have a plumber?
00;04;56;16 – 00;05;17;07
Unknown
I think that the space plumber. Space plumbers. That’s a movie, right? The, It was the female astronaut that did figure everything out. She fixed it. She’s like, I am not dealing with this shit. Quite literally. I’m done. We are gonna make this work. And she got it working again. And I was like, yes, yes, that’s great. But yes.
00;05;17;08 – 00;05;35;12
Unknown
And she didn’t have a YouTube video. She could watch the fix it do here. So we got to figure that out. You fix a space twilit. But yes, I’m excited for the the next, the next mission and was just happy to see that everything like they just landed in the middle of the ocean also. And I
00;05;35;15 – 00;05;40;29
Unknown
read that if it landed upside down, all of the GPS would be pointing downward.
00;05;40;29 – 00;05;58;12
Unknown
So all of their tracking signals would be pointing down into the ocean. So it’s really like a 5050 if they’re going to be able to find them and find them with GPS, they are watching them come down. And no, but luckily they landed upright. But yeah, there’s a lot. It’s space
00;05;58;19 – 00;06;00;06
Unknown
is a space. It’s just like it was.
00;06;00;07 – 00;06;12;08
Unknown
It was just like a happy moment the humanity needed. So we can we can all agree that there was it was wonderful. Yes, I it was fun to watch. But let’s talk about what we came here for.
00;06;12;12 – 00;06;18;27
Unknown
All of our acronyms, our acronym Soup, the excitement of of SEO and EO.
00;06;19;00 – 00;06;29;13
Unknown
let’s just cover the bases and talk about our three acronyms. Go. There’s a lot. There’s a lot. That’s just the three in this one podcast we’re covering.
00;06;29;19 – 00;06;54;09
Unknown
I live in nothing but three letter acronyms, but PPC like it’s CTR. It’s all acronyms. It’s all acronyms CVR. I mean, I could go on, but I won’t just these three. Just these three. All right. We’ll start with SEO. And sometimes we’ll see what happens in the office. When Ali and Kim were talking, let’s just like what foreign language happening?
00;06;54;15 – 00;07;01;10
Unknown
Yes. I have to tell myself not to do that in client meetings. Like, say the words.
00;07;01;10 – 00;07;33;21
Unknown
let’s start with SEO. This one’s a lot more familiar to a lot of people. So search engine optimization this is essentially all about ranking on search engine results page Google Bing. It’s been around since the internet has started. And so that’s really it’s it’s all about ranking for specific keywords related to either your business or service or a topic that you’re writing about.
00;07;33;24 – 00;07;57;23
Unknown
Really, it’s it’s about being listed as an option to users searching AIO, which is answer engine optimization, is more about being a single definitive answer to a specific question. And this has actually been around for a little longer than I think a lot of people know.
00;07;57;25 – 00;08;15;22
Unknown
This was really the rise of voice assistants like Siri and Alexa and even Google’s featured snippets. So those are all technically EO, and that’s been around for years. Right. Featured snippet. Is that like when you go, it’ll like give you a little bit of a response. It’s not necessarily AI now it is correct.
00;08;15;23 – 00;08;28;29
Unknown
It. So they would just pull out like a sentence or two. Right. That answered your question, but it was directly from a source. They weren’t crafting that. It was just pulled out. Okay.
00;08;29;02 – 00;08;41;18
Unknown
so that’s really what AOL was. It’s essentially that platform or that logic picking what, what they considered the best answer and then just serving it to you rather than you having to go look,
00;08;41;18 – 00;09;03;00
Unknown
So generative engine optimization is more like the evolution of answer engine optimization. Instead of being handed a snippet from a specific place, these generative engines are pulling from multiple different sources to be able to synthesize that information and present it to users in a longer form.
00;09;03;00 – 00;09;25;18
Unknown
Comprehensive answer. And so the goal of Geo is to be one of the sources being cited by that. So instead of like being the best one now, it’s just like, hey, we want to be in we want to be in the conversation in the suit, if you will. Yeah. Next we’re gonna there’s I had a bunch of questions that came up, but now we’re going to dig into each of these kind of individually.
00;09;25;20 – 00;09;38;14
Unknown
So we’ve all been hearing about SEO for quite a long time, right. Like we mentioned that that one’s been around since the creation of the internet with Alta Vista and Google search, all of these forerunners in the space.
00;09;38;21 – 00;09;41;01
Unknown
What is SEO?
00;09;41;04 – 00;09;50;15
Unknown
So when you think of SEO, I always like to think of it as a pyramid. And so at the bottom of the pyramid is the base, which is your technical SEO.
00;09;50;16 – 00;10;09;12
Unknown
This is your site being structurally sound and set up correctly to be able to be found by search engines, to be able to show up correctly, to be considered safe for people to view. And and if you don’t have that base, you can’t have anything
00;10;09;14 – 00;10;12;20
Unknown
like I’ve gone to websites on Google and it’s like this website is not safe.
00;10;12;20 – 00;10;29;03
Unknown
And usually it’s like their SSL certificate is has lapsed. Yeah. So if it’s if they’ve got HTTP and not Https, you’re going to have some problems, some technical issues. Correct. And then in the middle we have on page SEO.
00;10;29;06 – 00;10;50;10
Unknown
So that is really looking at the content you’re writing making sure you’re including those keywords, answering questions that people are searching for, making it easily digestible, including bullet points, short form paragraphs, head headings in the correct higher hierarchy.
00;10;50;18 – 00;10;56;12
Unknown
That’ll get people. Yeah. And so that’s everything that that people can see on your
00;10;56;14 – 00;11;17;10
Unknown
then at the very top of the pyramid is off site SEO. And so that is back linking. That is business listing social media essentially anywhere where you or either sending people back to your website or just building your brand outside of your website on the internet.
00;11;17;12 – 00;11;42;21
Unknown
SEO in a nutshell. Yeah. And while we mention SEO in our in our title, this really is about the evolution of SEO, which is getting towards that Geo and the. AOL. So we’ve got SEO covered now. Like, what about Geo? I think of like when I think of Geo, I think of geography. So initially I thought this was all tied to like location, but is it.
00;11;42;22 – 00;11;45;26
Unknown
No, not at all. Perfect. No.
00;11;45;28 – 00;11;49;16
Unknown
Like this is not a sports podcast.
00;11;49;19 – 00;11;58;15
Unknown
This is not a sports podcast. And we’re not talking about geography, which is probably a plus for you. Oh yes. If it was geography, I would just be like, well that’s a that’s maps. Right
00;11;58;17 – 00;12;04;19
Unknown
side note for listeners is horrible at geography. Like he does not know where Marian is from here.
00;12;04;21 – 00;12;09;04
Unknown
that way. No, no.
00;12;09;07 – 00;12;43;22
Unknown
Well we can hop into Geo. So what is it? Right. Similar to SEO, it’s a series of tactics for showing up in a specific place. But in this instance, it is the generative answers from different AI platforms. So that can be the LMS that people are using. ChatGPT is the most popular at this point. We’ve got Gemini, Claude Perplexity, which is technically an AI powered search engine, but works more like the LM in the way that it synthesizes answers.
00;12;43;29 – 00;12;50;20
Unknown
And then the AI. Overviews on Google are also considered a part of the generative engine optimization
00;12;50;25 – 00;12;59;15
Unknown
umbrella, which those are getting better. I will say yes, those were pretty bad and they are getting better. AI is advancing very quickly, we all know that. But like
00;12;59;19 – 00;13;03;23
Unknown
even the AI overviews are improving, which is.
00;13;03;26 – 00;13;10;06
Unknown
one of the key differences in SEO and Geo is what the goal is.
00;13;10;06 – 00;13;16;21
Unknown
Right? So SEO your goal is to rank on a search engine results page
00;13;16;21 – 00;13;56;08
Unknown
for Geo. There’s there’s kind of two goals citations and mentions. So mentions a is a little bit harder to get. That is when in the answer your brand or your website is is mentioned specifically within the answer. So this will happen if you are like the definitive source of a stat that they’re mentioning and or if it’s a search, if someone’s looking for the best roofing company in Cedar Rapids, and then they’ll probably going to have a list.
00;13;56;08 – 00;14;11;17
Unknown
And so then if you’re on that list, that’s a mention. Citations are more common, and that is where they are using your information in their answer. And then have a link to your site wherever it is that they store their links on Gemini,
00;14;11;17 – 00;14;33;08
Unknown
it’s easy to see they have like the little link subscript and so on. Some platforms it’s easier to find those than others, but that is where the citation comes in and gives people the opportunity to get to your page or get to your website from the generative answer.
00;14;33;14 – 00;14;51;08
Unknown
And those citations are important because while the AI overviews are improving, sometimes you still need to do a little research, like if it is a decision or if it is. I mean, really just if it sounds too good to be true, click those citations and go check it out because sometimes they’re still wrong or outdated
00;14;51;11 – 00;15;00;07
Unknown
So when you mentioned the citations and the mentions, how do you know? How do you know if you are getting a citation or a mention?
00;15;00;09 – 00;15;10;10
Unknown
It’s hard to know. There are more and more tools that are coming out that they consider these AI visibility tools. So
00;15;10;10 – 00;15;30;03
Unknown
they can kind of tell you if you’re showing up for specific queries. But the thing with AI is that it’s never the same. The answer is never going to be the same. And so when you’re thinking about measuring that, it’s more about probability.
00;15;30;07 – 00;15;41;12
Unknown
Are you more likely to show up for this query than not? And a lot of times it’s manual. Oh. So
00;15;41;15 – 00;16;16;04
Unknown
You can use these tools to get an idea of what you’re showing up for. But if there’s specific topics or questions that you want to be showing up for, the best way to know is to actually compile a set of questions or like kind of subqueries that would be encompassed in that topic or question, and then manually check it over time to see what the answers are and see if you’re trending more often than not as being one of the citations or mentions.
00;16;16;05 – 00;16;23;11
Unknown
Sounds like some of the old school strategies of long tail keywords in SEO. Yes, it’s all related. So
00;16;23;13 – 00;16;40;02
Unknown
how is AI like? We talked about how it’s now summarizing information. We’ve got citations, we’ve got mentions. How is it changing. Like are we seeing drastic number changes when it comes to traffic to websites like fully going to the website like are there are there a lot of changes in that space?
00;16;40;02 – 00;16;59;28
Unknown
yes, yes and no actually. So in some industries and some content types, they’re seeing a lot more of a decrease already in traffic from organic search. But this has been a trend that’s ongoing. So when we think about
00;17;00;08 – 00;17;15;00
Unknown
when we go back to the answer engine optimization, that’s really where this zero click search came into play. So this was a a user experience push from Google.
00;17;15;00 – 00;17;38;19
Unknown
Google specifically being like we just want to provide you with the answer. But also we don’t want you to leave our site. Yeah. We want you to stay here. We we can serve more ads. Yes. Here. And so that was an answer for getting people to stay on that site aka once they’ve searched no clicks. And so that has
00;17;38;19 – 00;17;39;15
Unknown
even increased.
00;17;39;15 – 00;17;52;16
Unknown
That number has increased with the implementation of the AI overviews. So we’re up to 60% of searches on Google ending with clicks and on move on mobile.
00;17;52;18 – 00;17;58;00
Unknown
On mobile.
00;17;58;02 – 00;18;09;03
Unknown
And on mobile, that number is even higher up to 77% of searches where someone never clicks a link after they do that initial search.
00;18;09;03 – 00;18;18;24
Unknown
the part to keep in mind there is traffic decreasing the website, but that traffic is what are your hours things that Google can already handle.
00;18;18;24 – 00;18;38;23
Unknown
Or asking baseline questions like this is not potential. They might be potential customers, but they are not looking to make a purchase with these questions. So I think it’s a little bit if we’re thinking about the marketing funnel, which now we’re a flywheel, but if we’re talking like top, top of the funnel, like these questions are, are table stakes, right.
00;18;38;26 – 00;18;58;11
Unknown
So it’s not like a dire, oh no, our traffic is down on our website because Google also has analytics. They know that people are watching these things. Are they putting anything in place to like track this. Right. Like can you now see that traffic is coming from these engines within Google
00;18;58;16 – 00;19;16;03
Unknown
Yes definitely. So even though we are seeing a dip in search traffic again, some more than others. We’ve seen some websites losing up to 50% of their search traffic in 2025 compared to 2024,
00;19;16;03 – 00;19;18;23
Unknown
and some not seeing that decrease at all.
00;19;18;23 – 00;19;36;11
Unknown
But across the board, we’re seeing more traffic from these generative engine platforms. So ChatGPT is at the forefront. That is where most of these are. Most of this traffic is coming from
00;19;36;13 – 00;19;50;01
Unknown
Our sights on average, actually saw an 1,800% increase in the number of visits from these generative engine platforms, with some growing over 5,000%
00;19;50;03 – 00;19;58;07
Unknown
1,800% increase over former generative responses, or 1,800% increase over traffic in general.
00;19;58;07 – 00;20;12;14
Unknown
So 1,800% from 2024 to 2025. And I didn’t go in and break out which platforms it was. But we in general general increase in traffic.
00;20;12;15 – 00;20;17;03
Unknown
Yes. You know, one thing I think Geo is interesting for is getting
00;20;17;06 – 00;20;42;19
Unknown
idea of what your brand looks like online. And I, I had put a question into AI about agencies in this area and how you would define each one and what the what the, you know, the traits or characteristics of each were. And it’s just interesting, like the results it gave me back where maybe not exactly how I would characterize de novo.
00;20;42;22 – 00;21;04;04
Unknown
And I thought, well, there’s something out there that is giving this impression. It wasn’t bad or anything. It’s just maybe not the way I wanted it to. So in a way, it was almost like this, just that taking the temperature of your brand and, and I think there’s, there’s some value to brands understanding how they are, how they return a GE answer.
00;21;04;05 – 00;21;09;00
Unknown
However, like you said, it can be different every time. So now I’m going to go back and do it again and see if it gives me
00;21;09;04 – 00;21;20;09
Unknown
some other results. And it would be interesting to see across platform. Right. If you ask Gemini versus free were uncomfortable though right. All out.
00;21;20;12 – 00;21;26;10
Unknown
But but you’re right. People might not necessarily realize how llms get their information or how they craft their information.
00;21;26;10 – 00;21;31;24
Unknown
And you don’t realize what goes into the the soup, if you will. Why do I keep talking about a soup? I don’t know,
00;21;31;24 – 00;21;43;06
Unknown
but it is also, it’s kind of funny, like a somebody can Google their own website and it returns a competitor’s ad and they might freak out about things like that. It’s the same thing, like, don’t freak out.
00;21;43;07 – 00;21;46;27
Unknown
Just because you didn’t get served that ad doesn’t mean that they’re not running thing.
00;21;46;29 – 00;22;04;28
Unknown
that’s the internet, right? Like algorithmically based like there are a lot of factors that go into it and your internet searches the same way. Even before AoE Geo, your internet search would be very different from mine because it’s trained on trained on the things you’re interested in.
00;22;05;00 – 00;22;20;22
Unknown
Google wants to give you the information that you want because they’re a product and they want you to stay on Google. They don’t want you to get mad and be like, I’m switching to Bing or I’m switching to Yahoo. They want to to be catered and customized to you, which is all the same as it has been for for a decade.
00;22;20;22 – 00;22;26;01
Unknown
And to be fair to Google, 90% of searches are still happening there.
00;22;26;03 – 00;22;36;12
Unknown
So even though we are seeing these these huge jumps in this traffic, it’s still just just a fraction of of the sources that we’re getting traffic from.
00;22;36;12 – 00;22;44;28
Unknown
Obviously, we expect this to grow and, and see a little bit more of an evening out as things go.
00;22;44;28 – 00;22;48;28
Unknown
But Google’s still got a hold of us.
00;22;49;02 – 00;22;57;03
Unknown
Google’s always kind of bend the top dog in search. There was DuckDuckGo trying to sneak its way in, and now we’re all worried about perplexity.
00;22;57;05 – 00;23;03;14
Unknown
ChatGPT I think in your predictions for 2026, it was mentioned that ChatGPT would have ads like
00;23;03;18 – 00;23;22;20
Unknown
ads are a major revenue source for Google, right? So they’re going to have to figure something out. They’re gonna I don’t know if they’ll ever say, hey, if you want to be a mention or if you want to be a citation, maybe we’ll upgrade your citation to a mention if you asked amount like it’s going to evolve to be at that level.
00;23;22;21 – 00;23;45;07
Unknown
Yeah. Well and if you think about it, if their goal is zero click searches, how are you going to. And generally Google ads are pay per click. So if you’re getting people to not click, where are you getting your money. So I think that’ll be interesting to see.
00;23;45;10 – 00;24;03;24
Unknown
That’s actually what I got stood for. But you know, is that sort of the same thing where it’s you’re asking it to make a decision for you and that’s zero click in a way. Is that do you think that’s an evolution? Is there a paid strategy potentially behind that coming.
00;24;03;27 – 00;24;07;14
Unknown
I don’t know. We’re going to we’re going to study that.
00;24;07;17 – 00;24;32;15
Unknown
Yes. Yeah. And I think wait and we’ll report back later. Yes. When it happens. So well with the whole agent side of things like there’s there’s one form of agents that’s using APIs and never actually going to these websites. But if the site doesn’t have an API or a way to connect to it, these agents are physically going to a website, and then all of a sudden, if they are clicking a link from Google, who’s being charged for that, right?
00;24;32;19 – 00;24;43;10
Unknown
Am I is my company getting charged when a bot clicks my clicks my ad like that’s something that we’ve always been talking about. And I think that that just continues the conversation and continues that, like, that’s
00;24;43;14 – 00;24;53;06
Unknown
also something we’re going to keep our eye on. I mean, we’ve seen what happens when, you know, bots are visiting websites and suddenly website traffic spikes because it’s not real traffic, right.
00;24;53;09 – 00;25;10;15
Unknown
That potentially has the same thing that that could happen that could, could cost advertisers and I think will quickly correct itself when it happens because it would have to. But you know, you’re right. Right. And I would bet that that does, you know, enter the ecosystem here at some point
00;25;10;15 – 00;25;16;09
Unknown
in time. Yeah. And we already over the course of a month
00;25;16;12 – 00;25;23;24
Unknown
from Google when we’re running Google ads, they’re constantly crediting us refunding for.
00;25;23;27 – 00;25;45;06
Unknown
word traffic. I mean yeah, like illegitimate traffic. Yeah. Yeah. And so they know they, they do know when that is happening. And so, you know, it might be a $4 refund here and $5 there. But it is something that is already on their radar.
00;25;45;06 – 00;25;49;12
Unknown
What would be interesting is ChatGPT rolls out ads what that looks like.
00;25;49;15 – 00;25;57;18
Unknown
So it kind of all comes back to users finding their information. It’s just an evolution. And from what you were saying those are pretty different right? Like
00;25;57;24 – 00;26;06;11
Unknown
are there similarities. Are there similarities in this space or is it like, no, you have to have a SEO and a geo strategy or is there some overlap between them?
00;26;06;13 – 00;26;14;15
Unknown
There’s a lot of overlap. There is a lot of overlap, especially on the technical side. So
00;26;14;18 – 00;26;23;28
Unknown
for both AOL and Geo, you you have to have that strong technical base. You have to be able or indexable. Whichever
00;26;23;28 – 00;26;31;18
Unknown
term you want to use, you have to allow these agents and these crawlers to come to your site
00;26;31;21 – 00;26;34;02
Unknown
or invite them because you can block them, right?
00;26;34;03 – 00;26;44;16
Unknown
Or ish. Why? Why did we why do we say so? Robots.txt is
00;26;44;19 – 00;27;10;14
Unknown
a really important file that you add to your site. That essentially is a guide map for robots crawlers to know where to go on your site and where not to go. And you can disallow certain traffic or certain bots from going to your site, but they don’t have to listen.
00;27;10;14 – 00;27;16;25
Unknown
So you are not welcome, correct? Okay, right. You won’t go. We won’t come check it out.
00;27;17;00 – 00;27;26;02
Unknown
To this day when somebody talks about robots and I’m going to date myself here, it just makes me think of the Jetsons all the time. All. Oh,
00;27;26;04 – 00;27;35;21
Unknown
no. I’m picturing. Who was that? Susie. Sally. Rosie. Rosie. Rosie. Susie. Sally. Rosie have to follow the rules, right?
00;27;35;22 – 00;27;40;29
Unknown
But generally they do. And so
00;27;41;02 – 00;28;00;15
Unknown
that’s one of the key things to make sure you have set up. And like I said, you can actually encourage specific traffic to come to your site through that. So there are ways that you can set it up for each. It gets a little excessive to be honest, but each of these platforms to say, hey, you’re allowed.
00;28;00;17 – 00;28;23;20
Unknown
And then that just gives them a little bit greener of a light to come and check out what’s on your site. Structured data is still very important for both things. So not to get too technical, but that’s setting things up with schema, which is a markup that essentially just tells those crawlers this is exactly what this content is about.
00;28;23;20 – 00;28;26;19
Unknown
And it’s formatted in this way.
00;28;26;21 – 00;28;29;26
Unknown
Like your events get pulled into. Right, right, right.
00;28;30;00 – 00;28;44;20
Unknown
There’s FAQ schema. There’s like location schema. So there’s a lot of different things. And these are already well established markups that are generally put in automatically through a lot of builders.
00;28;44;20 – 00;29;14;22
Unknown
So security still very important. Mobile first and just in general, your technical performance. So site speed, things like that are still really important for all of these tactics EOG, OCO, E8, which I know we’ve talked about in the past, eat the experience expertise authority ness, not authoritarian. And trustworthiness
00;29;14;22 – 00;29;15;26
Unknown
is very important.
00;29;15;26 – 00;29;33;06
Unknown
Even more so when it comes to G.L., because they are looking for the authority on a specific topic. They have so many things that they can choose from to pull information. So they are really looking for the
00;29;33;08 – 00;29;38;08
Unknown
highest authority so that they can present the best Ancer
00;29;38;10 – 00;29;42;21
Unknown
because those platforms, those engines, they present the information as an authority figure.
00;29;42;21 – 00;30;13;06
Unknown
So they’re just looking to steal some. But they but they have to there has to be back up to it. Right. You can’t just be like like your dad just stating it. Right? Right. Great confidence of a white male, right? Yes. No. This is actual. Yes. Authority. As in we can prove through bios, through statistics that, you know, we are experts on this, that we have the data and we’re not just saying things and sounding confident about it.
00;30;13;09 – 00;30;40;18
Unknown
Another way that SEO and Geo are similar is just making sure that you’re creating original content that serves a need, generally longer form, but making it really easily digestible. So you want to completely cover a topic, but break it down in a way that someone can skim and scan that it’s it’s not just a block of text that
00;30;40;20 – 00;30;43;08
Unknown
someone’s going to look at and go, nope.
00;30;43;10 – 00;30;47;27
Unknown
And back right out of there. So that includes I think I mentioned this earlier with SEO
00;30;47;27 – 00;30;52;15
Unknown
bullet points. Tables can be really important if you have that kind of data
00;30;52;19 – 00;31;11;23
Unknown
G.L. loves to pull in tables, so that can be really helpful on the geo side as well. And especially like like you said, when you see a wall of text you’re like, no thank you. No thank you. And you might be thinking like, oh, well, these bots like they, they don’t think that way, but they want to recreate the experience of a search.
00;31;11;23 – 00;31;17;18
Unknown
So they’re looking for sites that are optimizing for skim ability even though they don’t need things skim.
00;31;17;21 – 00;31;18;13
Unknown
And I think
00;31;18;16 – 00;31;27;10
Unknown
you can use the way that these engines present the answers as a hint to how they would want your site to be set up.
00;31;27;10 – 00;31;35;11
Unknown
They almost always include bullets. Include also tables like synthesize things really well.
00;31;35;11 – 00;31;38;08
Unknown
I think that can be a good guide.
00;31;38;08 – 00;31;42;14
Unknown
If you’re unsure of how to present your data on your website,
00;31;42;17 – 00;31;47;19
Unknown
that’s a really like not easy. But like that’s a very practical
00;31;47;21 – 00;31;58;21
Unknown
like tip. Like when you said like, check out how your brand comes up on these engines. But just like check out how your competition is also coming up and like seeing how it’s presenting the information.
00;31;58;24 – 00;32;09;28
Unknown
So so going back we just wanted to touch back on like how do these different, how do these acronyms differ in in the world of marketing? Because there’s a ton of them and it’s
00;32;10;03 – 00;32;12;28
Unknown
it’s hard for the average marketer to keep up.
00;32;13;03 – 00;32;21;17
Unknown
So, you know, my favorite acronym is so would you please explain these in a WTF format for me?
00;32;21;17 – 00;32;24;25
Unknown
Yeah. So there are some ways that
00;32;24;25 – 00;32;43;22
Unknown
the tactics we use for these do vary. So when we’re thinking about what we’re optimizing for SEO versus Geo, a lot of it is coming down to site ability over click ability. So for Geo we want we want to be able we want to have the
00;32;43;25 – 00;32;52;06
Unknown
the hard statistics, the unique information that only we can provide that they then want to include in their answer.
00;32;52;08 – 00;32;54;23
Unknown
For SEO, we want to
00;32;54;26 – 00;33;08;19
Unknown
essentially be clickable, right? Like we want to show up and get someone to click on our we want to rank. And so that is one of the key differences in in the way we would come at this technically
00;33;08;22 – 00;33;18;27
Unknown
if you were. Well it is your job to do. How do you break down from a resource perspective how you’re spending time and
00;33;18;27 – 00;33;21;04
Unknown
prioritizing SEO versus Geo?
00;33;21;04 – 00;33;43;10
Unknown
Because a lot of the tactics are similar to overlap that affect both. But are there tactics that really, you know, are very specific to SEO or very specific to Geo that you have to balance out because there’s not, you know, unlimited time in the world and unlimited budget for clients. How do you break that out and prioritize that?
00;33;43;15 – 00;33;55;03
Unknown
That’s a really good question. I would if you’re say you’re starting completely new, you have nothing already created. SEO would come first.
00;33;55;03 – 00;34;10;18
Unknown
If you are, you have a solid SEO foundation established. This is where I would switch my focus to more of the geo tactics, trying to optimize specifically for that.
00;34;10;20 – 00;34;42;04
Unknown
You will not hurt your SEO by doing this. As long as you continue to incorporate everything you’ve already done for SEO, it’ll actually probably only help. You can still create these answers to these questions while including the keywords that you’re trying to rank for. And so that would be my priority. And that’s what we’re doing with our clients, right?
00;34;42;05 – 00;34;58;15
Unknown
We we have the C.O. Foundation, both technical and not. And so now what we’re really doing is trying to build upon that, to capture that geo
00;34;58;18 – 00;35;08;06
Unknown
things like the top of the pyramid that you referred to, the backlinks, the social media, things that drive people back to your website. Do those affect Geo a
00;35;08;08 – 00;35;14;13
Unknown
They can. It really depends on what kind of link back it is.
00;35;14;15 – 00;35;19;22
Unknown
Read it for instance, seems to show up. Yes. In generative. Yes,
00;35;19;25 – 00;35;25;12
Unknown
Reddit and Reddit is huge in general. I mean, we know that Google has been prioritizing Reddit.
00;35;25;15 – 00;35;28;21
Unknown
That changed. It has changed search. Yes,
00;35;28;21 – 00;35;35;29
Unknown
there’s scouring multiple, multiple sites for the answer to their question or the answer to your question. And
00;35;36;04 – 00;35;56;01
Unknown
so if it’s seeing your name popping up over and over again, that just builds on your authority. And so even if it’s someone mentioning you on Reddit or if you’re in a list of best offs, right, that’s just going to build that authoritative and let them know that you you do know what you’re talking about.
00;35;56;01 – 00;36;00;06
Unknown
And like, you can be trusted as, as a source.
00;36;00;09 – 00;36;08;20
Unknown
So that top level, that’s where that’s pulling in like your backlinks. Right. And and to be honest, the the backlinks themselves are less important
00;36;08;20 – 00;36;23;17
Unknown
because it’s not just looking at links, they’re still important. But for geo they’re reading the content and their understanding. This person is this. And so they’re still able to build it upon, even just mentions.
00;36;23;20 – 00;36;36;10
Unknown
You mentioned like the the optimization for site ability over clickable right. Like are there other tactics, if you will, that fall into this geo space that we can cover in a top line? Yes. Top level
00;36;36;10 – 00;36;45;25
Unknown
sense. Yeah. So one of the one of the things that we’ve really focused on is building out more question related content.
00;36;45;25 – 00;36;46;21
Unknown
So
00;36;46;23 – 00;37;14;29
Unknown
whether that is using question style headings or incorporating more FAQs actually onto our website, and not just kind of a jumble of FAQs on its own separate page, right. Like we think more of FAQs as summarizing what’s already on the site in a way that is easily.
00;37;15;01 – 00;37;17;27
Unknown
Digestible. Yeah.
00;37;18;00 – 00;37;33;13
Unknown
Just by giving a really straightforward answer to a question in the way that people are generally speaking to these engines can help build that geo experience. So that’s one of the things that we’re focusing on
00;37;33;13 – 00;37;40;23
Unknown
adding a summary or a TLDR at either the top or the end,
00;37;40;25 – 00;37;43;28
Unknown
the top or the bottom of content can be really helpful.
00;37;44;00 – 00;38;04;18
Unknown
It just gives it a summary, essentially, that it’s like, if you just want to pull this like here, here it is, you know. Yeah. And that also helps with aiyo, if we’re still, you know, we still want to not forget about each, even though really it eventually will probably be
00;38;04;21 – 00;38;10;23
Unknown
taken consumed by Geo and then one of the other.
00;38;10;25 – 00;38;13;09
Unknown
Really not easy but
00;38;13;14 – 00;38;25;10
Unknown
high level tactics is giving the answers to your questions right away. We do not want to bury the lead, right? So question style heading headings answer right underneath
00;38;25;15 – 00;38;39;00
Unknown
had been true heading headings H1 right two three. Well you wouldn’t want it to. Maybe not H2 and H3. Yeah. But like truly using the headings because that’s how that’s SEO right.
00;38;39;00 – 00;38;40;25
Unknown
But that’s the foundation. That’s the foundation.
00;38;41;01 – 00;38;50;24
Unknown
we’ve got the SEO base. And now the next step is Geo. Have we been doing that? How have we been doing that for our clients and how we rolling out Geo the next level of
00;38;50;24 – 00;39;03;07
Unknown
of services. Yeah. So generally we’re starting with an audit looking at what that AI visibility is for that site, getting some
00;39;03;10 – 00;39;18;10
Unknown
more data from some of those tools that I was mentioning that you can get, but also doing our own searches and seeing, you know, are we showing up for any of these and then implementing a lot of the things I was just mentioning, looking at ways that we can
00;39;18;10 – 00;39;38;07
Unknown
improve the question answer format or how we can really optimize FAQs, build on that authority, provide that kind of information that it’s looking for. So that’s something that we are actively doing with our clients right now. And so I’m excited to see how that turns
00;39;38;09 – 00;39;49;24
Unknown
we covered a lot of acronyms. We covered a lot of information. If you had to boil this all down into one key takeaway, almost your summary of everything that happened. How would you do that?
00;39;49;24 – 00;39;58;11
Unknown
When it comes down to it, the short answer is SEO is about visibility. EO is about brevity, about providing.
00;39;58;18 – 00;40;24;28
Unknown
Here is a one sentence answer to this question. And Joe is about authority. So if you want to think of it more in a metaphor, metaphorical sense, SEO is like a library catalog. You want to be listed as one of the sources or one of the options in that catalog. EO is like a fact sheet. It just provides you the information.
00;40;24;28 – 00;40;42;00
Unknown
You take it and you do what you will with it. And Geo is more like an expert witness. They’re going to come in and they’re going to tell you everything they know because they’re the authority on it, and you have to believe them.
00;40;42;03 – 00;40;51;09
Unknown
Yes. Just some just some hallucinations. And that’s why we check our sources.
00;40;51;12 – 00;40;53;29
Unknown
And is one more important than the other?
00;40;54;01 – 00;41;07;14
Unknown
They all play a role. And obviously it’s going to change. Its changed since we last spoke on this. And so right now we don’t want to give up on any of them.
00;41;07;14 – 00;41;08;22
Unknown
SEO is not dead.
00;41;08;24 – 00;41;15;24
Unknown
Unfortunately. I’m sorry everyone. People just love to predict. They do
00;41;15;26 – 00;41;30;10
Unknown
predict the death of something they do. Marketers love to just be able to be like. And today we’re going to talk about the death of SEO, how Geo and are taking over SEO have predicted the death of email over and over again, and I have been consistently wrong.
00;41;30;16 – 00;41;50;13
Unknown
So I’m going to stop making death predictions at this point in time. The only thing those statements are good for is social media clips and fake headlines. So you know what clip that and use that as our social clip. SEO is dead, said no one. There you go, said everyone. But they’re wrong.
00;41;50;16 – 00;41;53;09
Unknown
So yeah, none. None more important than the other.
00;41;53;09 – 00;41;56;25
Unknown
But all things that need to be taken into consideration
00;41;56;27 – 00;42;11;17
Unknown
I think, I think you have to design the strategy, like in our case for the client. Right. There might be a client like you said, that it’s coming in new with no authority established, no basis of SEO. Like you’re going to spend more time on the south side of things.
00;42;11;18 – 00;42;25;01
Unknown
We have clients who are, you know, very established, have had web and solid web presence in SEO for years. We’re going to focus a little bit more on the Geo. So it really does. It comes down to goals and the stage of life in the business.
00;42;25;01 – 00;42;32;29
Unknown
and we don’t work with a lot of like publishing companies or anything like that.
00;42;32;29 – 00;42;36;13
Unknown
But it also depends on what type of website you have. Right.
00;42;36;15 – 00;42;48;08
Unknown
just understanding, honestly understanding your audience and knowing how they’re using the internet to find you is always going to be the number one. Never change it. Never.
00;42;48;11 – 00;42;55;05
Unknown
It’s about human behavior and how you deliver according to what human behavior can expect, predict, be comfortable with.
00;42;55;10 – 00;43;07;13
Unknown
I love it. Thank you Ali. But before we let you go. Will you join us for creative briefs? Sure. I love it. What if she said no? What if I said no? Oh, God. We’ll say
00;43;07;16 – 00;43;14;02
Unknown
Okay, so now it’s time for our segment called Creative Briefs. This is where we dig into a marketing campaign a concept idea.
00;43;14;02 – 00;43;24;04
Unknown
And we talk about the insights that we can glean from their marketing moves. And before we even start on this month’s creative brief I want to talk about last month.
00;43;24;06 – 00;43;34;23
Unknown
Do you remember what last month was? Not really. It was Burger King. Oh, the Burger King campaign. My God, I forgot. And this just proves marketing works. Obviously we know that, but marketing works.
00;43;34;23 – 00;43;54;20
Unknown
That was the campaign where they were like, we we we were wrong. We’re sorry. Like, we’ve we’ve done better. We promised. I went to Burger King that that next weekend. It was great. It was great. It was fast. It was very clean. The burger and all the food that we got looked pretty. It literally looked like a commercial.
00;43;54;22 – 00;44;04;11
Unknown
And you made a video that you shared with all of us. And I will say the burger looked good. It did. You looked ridiculous with your crown. They give me a crown too. Well,
00;44;04;14 – 00;44;05;19
Unknown
of course, of course.
00;44;05;21 – 00;44;11;18
Unknown
coincidence? We have another food based creative brief. We are very food focused people.
00;44;11;20 – 00;44;23;24
Unknown
Yes, we spoiler behind the scenes. We had to briefly pause to get a Jimmy John’s order. And because we’ve got. We’ve got some meetings. But Jen, break down our next food based creative brief. Okay,
00;44;23;25 – 00;44;32;26
Unknown
so I heard this on NPR and it is the the snack tax that as parents we often impose on our children. So for us it was the French fry tax.
00;44;32;26 – 00;44;49;16
Unknown
If I was getting French fries through the drive thru window before it got passed to the back, which I was totally giving them to shut them up, I would open it and I would take out a couple fries and say French fry tax, and I would pass it to the girls in the back and they are just accustomed to paying their French fry tax.
00;44;49;22 – 00;44;54;03
Unknown
Doug likes a pie tax. You know, whatever it is we parents
00;44;54;05 – 00;45;02;07
Unknown
with in common on Easter as well as Halloween, like, oh, Easter. Like, yeah, I like that ears off that bunny. That was the tax.
00;45;02;09 – 00;45;13;08
Unknown
Absolutely. So I’m a big tax and spend kind of kind of person then when it comes to food. So so this was definitely clever the way they’re doing this.
00;45;13;08 – 00;45;21;28
Unknown
So the idea is goldfish which are those like very I think they’re delicious cheeky little crackers. They don’t taste like real cheese but nope. They’re
00;45;22;00 – 00;45;30;11
Unknown
not supposed to say I don’t think they’re supposed to. Different thing. The snack that smiles back. Yeah, kind of like I mean, you were like, they kind of like, achieve it in a fish form.
00;45;30;12 – 00;45;31;22
Unknown
Also delicious, right?
00;45;31;27 – 00;45;54;22
Unknown
So basically they’re saying you can file a tax return for the snack tax on April 15th. That doesn’t go live until April 15th. And you can apply, I think, for two bags of goldfish, which I think are for your children, but I think I would tax the tax. Yeah. Before giving that to anybody else. And also my children are grown.
00;45;54;23 – 00;45;55;22
Unknown
So you
00;45;55;26 – 00;46;04;01
Unknown
know you have a lot of back taxes to taxes. Okay. What is like I think I’m owed
00;46;04;04 – 00;46;25;16
Unknown
just thought that was a really clever campaign. But then when I went to search for it, the search results did not give me goldfish as actual site. It gave me a lot of the PR around it, like they did a great job with the PR side of it, and it was sending me to some outlets that I probably would not normally get my news from, like people and parade.
00;46;25;18 – 00;46;46;25
Unknown
Yeah, no thank you. Did not want to click on those and get subjected to that. But it was interesting that that just didn’t come up in the search results. Even in the, you know, the Gemini overview at the top. It did not give me that. It did also offer me several videos. But again, they were not from, you know, the Goldfish Company or whatever their parent company is.
00;46;46;25 – 00;47;08;17
Unknown
So but they do have the site live. And so today is this is being recorded on April 14th, day before tax day. So I think it rolls out tomorrow. And I’ll be really curious to see if there’s buzz about it. You know, are people talking about it and how many people participate if they share that information. But is that from a creative standpoint?
00;47;08;17 – 00;47;09;01
Unknown
I really
00;47;09;05 – 00;47;39;05
Unknown
liked that. Yeah, people like it’s taxis and we know about that. And through the powers of technology, can we see the current site as as it stands like like you said, it’s magic, the parent tax return. But if you read the fine print, come back on April 15th at 415 to file your taxes. Yes. So I think that this is a a great opportunity for them to stay relevant in tax season like they had the Super Bowl or they had the Rose Bowl parade.
00;47;39;09 – 00;48;01;16
Unknown
They had a little tiny RC car, world’s smallest parade float. And they’re doing this as well. They are I wonder why. 4:15 p.m. is that when taxes are due, it might be 415. That would have been clever to go for 20, but oh, for 15 on for 15. Oh, when we talk it through there’s there’s layers of meaning.
00;48;01;21 – 00;48;20;13
Unknown
I don’t know, that could be the actual tax deadline to which would be a good way to remember 415 on 415 if you are in one time zone. True. That’s true. Correct. So but it says it’s almost time to file your parent tax return. So, you know, and I don’t know if this is a one day thing.
00;48;20;15 – 00;48;24;04
Unknown
I mean, they can’t run this if they’re really giving you
00;48;24;10 – 00;48;37;27
Unknown
even one bag of goldfish, much less I think I heard, too. Yeah, I saw that too. You know, they can’t they can’t give away that many. So I imagine it is maybe product limited and probably a one day thing. So. And I will not remember to go do
00;48;37;27 – 00;48;38;02
Unknown
it.
00;48;38;03 – 00;48;49;08
Unknown
Yeah, it’s a fun promotion. And I think that the other piece of this is it’s reminding people that goldfish exists. Right. Like, if this is not a common snack that you give to your kids, like,
00;48;49;11 – 00;48;55;28
Unknown
you don’t even have to have children to get goldfish, like they are not an expensive treat, snack, etc. like they’re cheaper than Cheez-Its.
00;48;55;29 – 00;48;56;09
Unknown
I always
00;48;56;11 – 00;49;03;19
Unknown
gave them to my kids when they broke up with a boy in high school, because there’s other fish in the sea. So okay, that was my little tradition.
00;49;03;19 – 00;49;15;29
Unknown
I have a cat that loves them. Cats also love goldfish. Oh, and that because they like fish. I don’t think that’s why they know. Because Bella likes cheese. Oh, they like the fake cheese.
00;49;16;04 – 00;49;21;07
Unknown
She’ll also steal a Cheeto. So until it was disgusting. Generally.
00;49;21;10 – 00;49;32;12
Unknown
And they’ve done a few of these stunts or promotions in the past. Like I think that they are really trying to remind adults, millennials that have kids now, like they want to remind them that they exist.
00;49;32;12 – 00;49;55;09
Unknown
In 2024, they had a online only promo where they renamed from goldfish to Chilean sea bass. So they’re just doing these stunts because that is a common tactic, like renaming carp or certain fish to other things. Right. And then they also tried to roll out a few other flavors to like old Bay goldfish,
00;49;55;10 – 00;49;58;19
Unknown
Frank’s Red Hot goldfish. Rainbow ones are cute.
00;49;58;21 – 00;50;19;10
Unknown
Yes they were. They were clever. Yeah, they taste the same. Yeah. So. And they, they were able to use like they, they rolled out some new colors, but they were still healthy. Like it wasn’t red dye 40. They were like, oh, we used beat something for this, dye me for maybe we’re going to need a producers note on that later.
00;50;19;11 – 00;50;45;23
Unknown
Is
00;50;45;25 – 00;50;47;02
Unknown
Jen, what do you think?
00;50;47;02 – 00;50;51;12
Unknown
Was this a successful promotion? At the end of the day, I don’t know.
00;50;51;14 – 00;51;08;26
Unknown
I’m going to have to come back and get my answer on next month’s podcast. If you’ll remind me, I will check. I think it really depends. Like I said, I thought it was really weird that it it seemed to roll out in more of a PR fashion and didn’t drive people back freely to the site, at least not from the search results.
00;51;08;26 – 00;51;16;09
Unknown
I saw it and it seemed like odd media outlets. So. And it was a lot of like smaller, like NPR affiliates too.
00;51;16;13 – 00;51;23;24
Unknown
Well, the I think this this is perfect because you mentioned search, right. And what we kind of talked about today, it’s not immediate.
00;51;23;27 – 00;51;26;18
Unknown
Why why wasn’t this pulling up in search results.
00;51;26;21 – 00;51;40;02
Unknown
Well, I was going to say it did show up in the AI overview for me. Oh. Oh, I thought you said it. Didn’t know it did, but it didn’t. It still didn’t pay. It didn’t offer me. Oh the link. Right, right. It just said basically it is happening.
00;51;40;05 – 00;51;45;02
Unknown
Gotcha. Gotcha answered. But it just didn’t
00;51;45;09 – 00;51;52;09
Unknown
like maybe for something like this where they’re spinning up a site where there maybe that’s a little harder.
00;51;52;09 – 00;52;12;26
Unknown
I mean, it could be that there’s not a lot of content right there. And SEO is needs content and geo needs it. So if they’re not going to link to this, they’re probably getting their that information from those other sources that you are also talking about.
00;52;13;03 – 00;52;37;29
Unknown
Where did we get this link? The this link came from inside the people article okay. They’re basically using. So it’s possible this isn’t even listed as indexable. Yeah. Might not be indexable or this is a a back linking strategy somehow as well. They’re getting a little bit of juice from people from all these other places. I think we might be giving them a little too much power.
00;52;38;01 – 00;52;54;01
Unknown
And admittedly, this was a fast campaign. This is a pretty fast campaign. You don’t have time to read it. Like, how fast was it? That’s true. We don’t know. They couldn’t plan for all these things. We don’t know. Yeah. I mean, it doesn’t we don’t even know what it’s going to be. This website might be completely different. It might be more than just a form.
00;52;54;01 – 00;52;59;08
Unknown
It might have celebrity endorsements. I’ll be like, who knows, tomorrow we’ll find out tomorrow.
00;52;59;11 – 00;53;04;20
Unknown
Exciting. So tune in next month because we will then cover the goldfish snack tax.
00;53;04;20 – 00;53;21;08
Unknown
that was create a brief. But before we go, Ali, thank you for again being a recurring guest on on Pink Fresh. Thank you for joining us. Thank you for dropping goldfish. And thank you for explaining all things SEO, Geo, PPC, all of it. We didn’t cover all of it, but thank
00;53;21;11 – 00;53;22;23
Unknown
T
00;53;22;25 – 00;53;24;08
Unknown
I love it, I love it.
00;53;24;13 – 00;53;35;29
Unknown
Bye, everybody. And remember you can now watch think fresh. So if you are just subscribed on your podcast app you can go to YouTube and the other platforms where you watch Think Fresh and and check us all out.
00;53;35;29 – 00;53;45;07
Unknown
You can see us in person, you can see us cover the creative briefs and make sure you subscribe. Thanks everyone. Bye
00;53;45;09 – 00;57;58;25
Unknown
Are we swearing on this or now?
00;57;58;27 – 00;58;13;29
Unknown
I have a Biel. I have a blatt. Blow avocado wrap. I have a black wrap, but I don’t have a side to go with it. Black. Black. All right. What, am I
