S1 0:00
Jen, thank you for letting us go to New York and be daddy’s little meatball. Oh my God. Daddy’s

S1 0:05
little meatball. Forever.

S2 0:16
Hello and welcome to Think Fresh, a podcast brought to you by Nova Marketing’s collective

S2 0:21
Creative. Coming to you from our Ideas Institute and here to talk about all things marketing

S2 0:27
insights on new trends, innovative ideas and marketing tools you can use in your day to day

S2 0:32
life and whatever else we deem relevant. I’m Jen Newman, de novo CEO and your host. And I’m Ryan

S3 0:38
Schoenfeld, account manager, innovation and education lead and resident nosy eavesdropper,

S3 0:43
always looking to push the envelope. He is indeed very, very nosy. Today we’re going to talk about

S3 0:48
influencer marketing. On today’s podcast we’re joined by Annie Sexton Stuart and

S3 0:55
Ashley Bert. They recently went to New York, which we’ll talk about a little bit later in the

S3 0:59
episode. but Annie Ashley, welcome to this episode of Think Fresh. Welcome, guys. Thank you. Happy to be

S1 1:06
here. Thanks for having us. And this is your both of you have been on the podcast before, correct?

S3 1:11
This isn’t anyone’s first time on the podcast, correct? No virgins. Awesome. All together though.

S5 1:16
Our first time together. Double a team. The eight. Oh, wow. Well, everyone, the summer summer is coming

S3 1:23
to an end. We are. We’re now fresh into into September. We did have a break in August. And.

S6 1:29
Summer is not ending. I know. Whoa, whoa, that was aggressive. It’s not. Over. Until September 21st. I’m

S3 1:35
back in. I’m back in class. I’m back in school. Once the school busses start up, I think summer is over.

S3 1:40
I don’t. Know, number. One, the Halloween decorations go up. Oh, we’re we’re there. Oh. The weather is

S1 1:47
saying fall, though. We have to get on board again. But it’s going to be in the 80s this week and I’m

S6 1:51
just I’m holding out. I don’t want to wear clothes toed shoes. I’m not ready for it. It was a nice

S3 1:58
run. It was a nice run. We’re we’re back to back to being hot like it’s supposed to be for this time

S3 2:03
of year. But we had a good two weeks of some nice, cool weather. I don’t like being hot, so. You could

S5 2:09
just shift to socks and sandals. Isn’t that what all the kids are doing these days? All the cool

S3 2:14
kids socks and. Sandals. Me around my house. Okay, great. They can’t have their dogs out. Yes.

S5 2:20
Apparently, showing your toes, I don’t know. Is apparently. Unacceptable. Which I really don’t give

S6 2:25
a crap. Like I am going to expose my toes or my dogs as I just found out today. And like, if

S6 2:32
somebody has a problem with it, that’s that’s not. Let those dogs. Out. I’m unaware of this. What? What

S3 2:37
is what’s happening? The kids, the youth refer to your feet as like if you. If you’re wearing

S1 2:43
sandals, you have your dogs out. And they don’t like it. Yeah. Or like, you know, your dogs are

S1 2:47
barking. It’s like, man, my feet hurt. Okay, I have heard that. I have heard that. But this is like the

S1 2:51
youth’s version of, like, reinvigorating that, like, oh, you’ve got your dogs out. I think they just

S5 2:57
want to tell us that everything we wear is wrong, and I pretty much am not okay with it. You can’t

S3 3:02
wear skinny jeans. You can’t wear open toed shoes. Nobody stopped wearing skinny jeans. That is. True.

S5 3:06
I think that’s the thing. No one actually stopped doing any of it. They’re just saying it’s wrong.

S5 3:11
And then us millennials get in our heads about it and then we’re like, wait, I can’t wear that. And

S5 3:16
then we do it anyway. Wait till you millennials are middle aged and you’ll be like, who cares? Who

S6 3:22
cares what the kids think? So but we want to be cool. We want to be cool for our young, hip, new

S5 3:27
employees as well. Ashley, you just had a one year adventure, right? I always like to talk about

S3 3:33
traveling on the podcast because whenever you go outside of your your comfort zone, that’s when you

S3 3:39
see a bunch of cool new stuff. Did you see anything cool, new, fresh marketing opportunities?

S3 3:44
Where did you go? Hmm, I went to San Diego for our one year anniversary. For those of you who don’t

S1 3:50
know, like Ryan, San Diego is in Southern California. Southern California, that’s where it

S3 3:55
got me. Hmm. Cool marketing opportunities. I think de Novo should sponsor an animal at the San

S1 4:02
Diego Zoo. Hear me out. Maybe one of the monkey exhibits is gonna say. Do they have raccoons

S6 4:09
or raccoons? That would be so good. I feel like that would. Be. Fitting. For us to sponsor. Raccoons.

S1 4:16
And possums at the zoo. Beaver Park Zoo in Cedar Rapids. We could sponsor that. And just start our

S5 4:22
own. Oh my gosh, these are great ideas. I just came with with some ideas and marketing

S1 4:28
opportunities for us. Oh, I’ll be honest, I turned off my marketing brain a little bit. I went to the

S1 4:34
beach. I got to play in the ocean. I got humbled by some waves. Oh, no. Um, yeah,

S1 4:41
that did just spur a thought for me as I’m relaxing on the beach, reading my book, minding my

S1 4:45
business, enjoying the sun. I hear this really annoying noise, and I look up and it’s those

S1 4:51
planes going by with the banners. I couldn’t believe high noon. Like the one that went over

S6 4:56
like Iowa City the other day. Was there one in Iowa City? Yeah. Oh my gosh, that’s crazy. I it was

S1 5:01
like a Bacardi one. There were a lot of alcohol ones which I thought was still a good time. Yeah.

S1 5:06
And I totally forgot about that. I have not seen one of those. I think probably since the last time

S1 5:10
I was at the beach, but all I could think about was how much money does that cost for them to fly

S1 5:15
around that banner? Do they pay by the hour and then like, who pays for the fuel? And then of

S1 5:20
course, the like, climate conscious person inside of me was like, ooh, is this like a great look? I

S1 5:26
don’t know, but maybe we need to bring it back, I don’t know. I’m also very curious, like when you

S3 5:32
when we’re creating billboards or when we’re working on, like, trailer graphics and things like

S3 5:37
that, you never realize how big something is until you see it mocked up, right? I am so curious how

S3 5:43
big that vinyl or that banner would be that they’re then towing behind a plane. Like, how big

S3 5:49
is that? When it’s landed on the ground. They would have to be pretty long because it was truly just

S1 5:54
the whole Bacardi spelled out. I don’t even think it had a tagline on it or anything, but I saw

S1 5:59
several of those, and I just couldn’t get over the fact that they still did that. Like that just

S1 6:04
seems so interesting. That’s so it was the Friday before Labor Day weekend. I saw one over Iowa City

S6 6:10
and it was a high noon one, so I thought of you, but I kind of had the same thought. I’m like, when

S6 6:15
was the last time I saw that that that wasn’t at a game, right? Like, sometimes you see him at games

S6 6:21
and it was just being pulled by like a little biplane. But yeah, kind of the same thing. Like, is

S6 6:26
that worth the money? Does Iowa City need to be reminded to drink high noons? Really? I don’t think

S1 6:32
so. Not when I’m in Iowa. So it’s just wild to think that, like, I don’t know, the beach is a place

S5 6:39
that you go to to, like, relax and get away from it all. And they’re like, no, we’re going to capitalize

S5 6:43
on this empty space and you’re going to stare at marketing. Too bad. It kind of reminds me that

S1 6:48
everything comes back in trend. Right? Like this was probably really popular 20 years ago. And then

S1 6:55
I don’t know if there was a period where maybe it died out, but now it’s back again. So, you know,

S1 6:60
maybe some other old type of marketing tactic we’ll come back to, you just don’t know. I love

S3 7:04
that. I think they should pull them behind hang gliders instead. Like they get them up in the air.

S6 7:09
Yes. And then they unfurl, and then maybe they release it before they land, because it might be a

S6 7:14
safety issue, but that would be a more ecologically. Yeah, responsible way to do it. I’m

S1 7:20
into it. And then there’s the intrigue too, of like, where do they land? Like how do they swim back? So,

S1 7:26
you know, so many questions. That’s true. That’s true. I don’t know. That that works in. An urban.

S6 7:30
Environment so. Much so. They’ll figure out they’ll figure out a way. I know. And just like things

S3 7:35
coming back into into trend, I am gonna let everyone know. Don’t forget, this is, First things

S3 7:40
first, a sports podcast. And it’s not. And the Indiana Fever since 2015, ladies and gentlemen

S3 7:46
have made it into the playoffs since 2015. Aren’t we excited? What do you

S6 7:53
mean? Since, like, the first time. Since the last time they were in the playoffs was 2015, when

S3 7:58
Tamika Catchings was. So the years you were trying. To be about sports, but you got to figure out how

S6 8:02
to say that, right? So the first time since 2015. Isn’t that what I. Said? You made it sound like

S6 8:08
they’ve been in it every year since 2015. No, no, first time since 2015 that they’re in the

S3 8:13
playoffs. Is weird because I’m a guest, but I’m also giving you a producer note that they made

S5 8:17
the playoffs last year. Oh, no. Please keep this in the podcast. This has to stay in the podcast.

S5 8:24
Annie. What? The producer note. Ryan. You’re incorrect. They were in the playoffs last year, six.

S5 8:28
Seed last year, and they lost in the first round, I’m pretty sure. But they did make it. What am I

S3 8:33
reading? I’m gonna have to go back through and look at my notes. I get that from my source. Oh no.

S6 8:38
Yeah, I. Love. Yeah, I really, really love it when Annie fact checks Ryan so hard in this podcast.

S3 8:45
What is my note? I don’t even know. I don’t know where I saw it, saw it, I do not know where I saw

S3 8:50
it. So they were in the playoffs last year. Wow. That tracks. Correct. Would last year have

S1 8:56
technically fallen in 2025. How does the basketball see. Maybe I did see an old maybe I saw

S3 9:02
like an old headline yet. No that would have been. I don’t know how sports work, but that’s my. But

S8 9:07
what we. Are going to note. Is doesn’t know how sports work. I don’t know, I’m. Only two seasons in

S3 9:12
friends. I’m only two seasons in. But I will say they are down five of their standard players.

S3 9:18
There are only 12 members on a team and they are down five with season ending injuries. So that

S3 9:23
just shows there’s some resilience at play, resilience. Or that they’re going to get.

S4 9:27
Absolutely creamed. Oh definitely good. Even the fact that they make it to the playoffs I mean,

S3 9:32
there are 12 teams. I think only seven teams make it to the playoffs. Or is it eight teams? Who knows?

S3 9:37
Who knows? I think it would have to be eight because it has to be even, right? Does it have to

S3 9:41
be even or do you get byes? Why? Is this a sports podcast? Who knows? It’s not.

S3 9:49
That just shows that it’s not a sports podcast. And it’s just. A sports podcast. Riding the trend

S3 9:55
of Caitlin. Clark. Here’s what I can tell you. Big sports girl Travis Kelce and Taylor Swift engaged.

S1 10:01
Big news. Travis Kelce had his first game made a touchdown. Otherwise they’re not looking good.

S1 10:08
That’s all I’ve got to report to you. I this is actually so this was announced right

S3 10:15
after she announced that she has a new album out. And I was just curious, like, did they purposely

S3 10:19
wait until after the, um, the Pomp and Circumstance died down from the album release to then or

S3 10:26
announcement not release to then talk about the wedding. Like they didn’t wait. They didn’t do it

S3 10:30
right. At the same time, they waited to keep her at the top of the headlines. Well, she was already

S1 10:37
engaged when the podcast came out that they were both on, so they got engaged right

S1 10:43
at. No, wait. I’m sorry. Right after the recording of the podcast. Recording, so she was already engaged

S1 10:48
when the podcast dropped. But they got engaged right after the podcast, and I was reading a

S1 10:53
little bit that her manager wouldn’t have maybe wanted their brands to collide until there was

S1 10:59
like something more permanent. So the fact that it kind of happened around the same time that the

S1 11:03
podcast dropped. I mean, there yes, there’s like publicity and then there’s PR, right. And like

S3 11:08
publicity is what you don’t necessarily put out there. That’s like interviews. But then PR is those

S3 11:15
announcements like Taylor Swift made an announcement about her her record drop, whereas

S3 11:20
then her wedding got the or her engagement got the publicity. And you don’t want your publicity

S3 11:25
to take over your PR efforts because it’s like, wait, this is all important. It’s it’s tough. I

S3 11:30
don’t know. In theory, but it does. Oh, sometimes because authenticity, I think authenticity comes

S3 11:35
into play a lot which which we’re going to get talking about as we get into our actual topic.

S6 11:40
What a good segue. Segue. Look at that influencer marketing. Annie Ashley, you both were at a

S3 11:46
conference in New York specifically around influencer marketing, correct? Tell us a little bit

S3 11:50
about that. So Annie and I had the opportunity to go to Creator Economy, live in New York in Times

S1 11:56
Square. It was a one day conference that featured a bunch of different, um, topics

S1 12:03
breakouts. We got to hear from brands like Elf Cosmetics, Microsoft Church, and Dwight, which runs

S1 12:09
a bunch of different, um, brands about how they are leveraging influencer marketing in their

S1 12:15
strategies. And was it only brands or did you hear from actual influencers themselves? Were there any

S3 12:21
agencies or was it was it mainly brands? Uh, it was mostly brands. Uh, we a new thing to me is that

S5 12:27
there’s actually entire agencies that handle pretty much only that and the influencer side of

S5 12:33
things. Um, we learned to that like a lot of these larger companies have in-house influencer teams.

S5 12:39
Um, but really, I don’t think there were it was not for influencers. It was for brands and how

S5 12:45
companies are kind of leveraging that. Um, so I don’t actually know if I think there were some

S5 12:49
people who were trying to be influencers there. We mingled with a couple of those trying to get

S5 12:54
their names out there, but for the most part it was brands. Um, there was an exhibition hall that

S1 12:58
had a lot of, like, platforms, if you will. So, um, whether they were a platform for social media

S1 13:04
posting to manage your, um, paid media or a lot of platforms that connect you with creators and

S1 13:11
influencers, um, kind of like a matchmaking service, if you will. And so that was really interesting to

S1 13:17
be able to kind of walk around that between sessions and kind of see how they were selling

S1 13:22
themselves, see what swag they had available. Um, they did also record a live podcast, which was

S1 13:29
pretty cool between some of the panels. So, you know, we got to kind of like listen in. So I think

S1 13:34
the environment was really interesting. A lot of the speakers were really interesting. Um, you know,

S1 13:40
some some were a little bit more in depth than others, but it was honestly just a really great, um,

S1 13:46
experience to be able to hear, like how some of them, you know, organize the way that

S1 13:52
they work with influencers or what some tactics are, or even just some like use cases that were

S1 13:58
really interesting. Um, and so, yeah, it, it reminded me that we’re on the right track. All right. So

S6 14:05
before we get started, for maybe some of us who are our are maybe older at the microphone or on

S6 14:11
the other end of the, uh, microphone. Um, can you just kind of break down some of the terms that

S6 14:17
get used so that our audience can understand things a little bit better? Absolutely. So there

S1 14:22
are three main terms that you’ll hear us talking about influencers, content creators, and UGC.

S1 14:29
UGC is your user generated content. It’s content that is literally generated by your users. It’s

S1 14:34
pretty straightforward. It’s those story shares. It’s people using your product and posting it

S1 14:40
online. Um, regardless of their network content creators, those are people who are really focused

S1 14:47
on the craft of creating quality content, whether it’s videos, photos, etc. in this podcast, if you

S1 14:53
will, will be focusing most on video. These are engaging, informative contents, sometimes made to

S1 15:00
a brief or based on their expertise. So de novo we would fit into content creators if

S1 15:07
you will. So influencers are where you’re leveraging their network. They are influencing

S1 15:13
people about purchasing decisions by talking about your product. It’s a paid partnership. The

S1 15:19
key is, is that they are posting it on their page where they have their following. That’s the

S1 15:23
influencer part of it. So to Ryan’s point, I know he’s going to want to make the reference. Um,

S1 15:30
all influencers are content creators, but not all content creators are influencers. Okay, so content

S3 15:36
creators, they can just pass off their content to an agency, a brand, etc.. It’s the influencer when

S3 15:42
you’re really just using their following. Exactly, exactly. Does it ever go the other way? Like, could

S3 15:47
a brand just give a straight up commercial and I don’t. This might even just be bad. I’ve never seen

S3 15:53
this. Would a brand ever just, like, give a commercial to an influencer and be like run this

S3 15:57
on your on your platform? Not if they’re not in it. Yeah. Yeah that’d be that’d be. We’re missing the

S1 16:03
authenticity of it. That’s why you’re using the influencer is for they’ve built a relationship

S1 16:08
with their audience over years and years organically. And now we’re paying them to talk

S1 16:13
about something. The hope is that they use it authentically and maybe, you know, show the product

S1 16:18
almost out or, you know, use it in a way that makes sense. The word authenticity can’t rang out there.

S3 16:25
We’ve been talking about that a lot in marketing. And I think that that when a brand gets involved,

S3 16:31
you do have to make sure authenticity, you’re keeping that in mind. But is it still authentic

S3 16:36
when a brand is involved with an influencer. Authenticity was the buzzword of the conference,

S1 16:42
for sure. We heard it a lot. But to be fair, it is a really important part and piece of this

S1 16:49
element in marketing. And so yes, it should be authentic. It should still be authentic because

S1 16:54
that is the benefit of influencer marketing. Say Annie is a big influencer. She just got a

S1 17:01
new puppy. It would make sense for brands to be gifting her things that relate to her puppy. If

S1 17:08
Annie is, you know, doesn’t have any kids, Pampers shouldn’t be sending her diapers. You know what I

S1 17:13
mean, right? You’re looking for those authentic partnerships that make sense. Otherwise your

S1 17:17
audience does feel when it’s forced, and that’s when it feels slimy and slimy. They did talk a lot

S5 17:22
about. It’s a weird word to think about in this context, but casting. But it’s true. Like making

S5 17:28
sure that you are finding the right people who align with your values, who produce the right type

S5 17:33
of content, who are in the same world that you’re in, and that all of that aligns is like really

S5 17:38
important for these brands to make sure that they’re making those decisions in the right way

S5 17:43
off the bat. And so I thought it was kind of funny that they used that word, but it’s true. I mean,

S5 17:47
that’s exactly what they’re doing. Yeah. And I think that’s why a lot of brands are so hesitant

S1 17:52
or can be so hesitant to get into this space because you’re giving up a lot of control. And

S1 17:57
that’s actually one thing that a lot of the panelists were, were reiterating is you are giving

S1 18:03
up control. You have to you cannot give them a script that they’re following. Word for word. I am

S1 18:09
reading this script. Their audience is going to suss that out really fast. And so you you need to

S1 18:14
be able to give them maybe a 2 or 3 bullet points of like just so that we’re all on the same page.

S1 18:21
We’re not making anything up, but then you really have to let them run with it. You have to let them

S1 18:26
use it however they might. And sometimes you’re like, oh, that’s not exactly what we made this

S1 18:31
product for. But that is the name of the game of influencer marketing. You’re giving up a little

S1 18:35
bit of control. And that’s why what Annie said, casting is so important. Before you even lock in

S1 18:42
an agreement or a contract with an influencer, you want to be really clear that they match your

S1 18:47
values and who you are as a company. And we’ve all seen it blow back for certain brands where

S1 18:52
something comes out later on, and that’s the chance that you’re taking. Yeah. For people who’ve

S6 18:57
been in the industry for maybe nearly 30 or 30 years here at this point, it’s so interesting to

S6 19:04
have seen this evolve over the years. So, I mean, it used to be that only big brands could afford

S6 19:09
celebrity endorsements, right? That was influencer marketing back then, or maybe product placement in

S6 19:15
a TV show or a movie. And then as our media consumption changed and social media entered

S6 19:22
the scene, you saw it happening. But it was kind of like we were like the frog in the boiling pot of

S6 19:28
water for a long time. It’s just like, well, what do you do with this? And for people who, you know, kind

S6 19:32
of came from a school of ad theory. You were taught to never let anybody control your brand.

S6 19:39
You never change a color. You never let people touch it. It’s in a box. It’s locked up. The

S6 19:45
brand. You control the brand. Um, that is really hard for for some people to wrap their heads

S6 19:51
around. It took me a long time to wrap my head around it, too. It’s just like, well, what if they

S6 19:56
place the logo incorrectly? What if they, you know. What if they do something that doesn’t align with

S6 20:01
a brand value and it’s out of my control? That that is scary for a lot of companies to think

S6 20:07
about and maybe isn’t even the right fit for some companies. Um, but it’s been going

S6 20:14
on for a while now. It has been going on for a while, and it’s not going anywhere anytime soon.

S1 20:19
But I agree it is. It is scary. You’re taking a chance and it’s a big investment. And so I think

S1 20:25
that upfront work of really making sure that you’re casting the right people is so important.

S1 20:31
And a lot of companies were talking about how they are now kind of reorganizing a bit, where

S1 20:37
they’re putting a lot of emphasis into these influencer teams, if you will, because it is really

S1 20:42
time intensive and it can be a bit expensive. So you really want to make sure that you’re doing

S1 20:47
your research upfront. Yeah. I think there’s some myths out there too. I was talking to somebody. It

S6 20:54
was on a board that I sit on, and they were talking about like, well, we could do some

S6 20:57
influencer marketing and if we just give them the free product, like we won’t have to pay them. And I

S6 21:02
thought, that’s just not really how it works. There are people who this is their career now. This is

S6 21:07
how they make money and they aren’t in it for free tchotchkes here. So it’s just interesting

S6 21:14
how people might miss, perceive, uh, influencer marketing or maybe not even taking it seriously

S6 21:21
enough. I think that that happens a lot. And there’s a lot of myths out there about it. Yeah.

S5 21:26
And that actually came up quite a bit at the conference, too, of like making sure that just

S5 21:32
those contracts and acknowledging like these are people to this is their livelihood. Like they need

S5 21:37
to be paid on a timely manner. Their rates and stuff need to be fair like all of this. And so

S5 21:42
casting is the word that got thrown around a bit. But also the greater point of a lot of the

S5 21:48
conversation was, if you’re doing this right, it should be a collaborative partnership, and a lot

S5 21:53
of them prefer the long term stuff where they work with somebody over and over again. And as

S5 21:58
Ashley was talking about it, I mean, it’s kind of what we do, right? Like, we work with our clients

S5 22:03
and they trust us to, you know, take on their brand and speak for it and create things that

S5 22:09
align with their brand. It’s the same idea. So if you’re finding the right person, the right partner,

S5 22:14
then they’ll just be an asset to your brand. Um, but yeah, I can definitely also understand the

S5 22:20
hesitation and confusion, um, that comes with it as well. I don’t think it gets in the weeds at all to

S6 22:26
talk about contracts. Right? Like, that’s an important part of this because you’re asking them

S6 22:31
to deliver something and you’re going to give them some guidelines, but not too many guidelines.

S6 22:36
But on on the flip side of it, they are getting paid to deliver. And there should

S6 22:43
be clear lines of responsibility there. Um, what are some of the pitfalls around

S6 22:50
that, like with using an influencer and relying on them to deliver? Maybe not even an influencer or

S6 22:56
contract or a content creator? Um, what are some of the pitfalls of of relying on people who maybe

S6 23:03
aren’t a full, you know, professional shop delivering a final deliverable? You were talking

S1 23:09
about contracts, Jen, and that should absolutely be one of the things that you have in place, whether

S1 23:14
you’re working with an influencer or a content creator, is the deliverability and timeliness. I’ve

S1 23:20
seen it on some accounts that I work on, and I heard about it at the conference as well, as

S1 23:25
that’s one of the risks is the timeliness. Some of these influencers have teams behind them, and some

S1 23:30
of them are one woman or one man bands, and life comes up. There are people like Annie said. So

S1 23:38
there’s the giving grace, but then there’s also having something in place that covers you if

S1 23:43
something bad were to happen. And so that is that is one of the pitfalls, maybe to working with an

S1 23:49
influencer is you need to spend the time to have a good contract in place, but then also be able to

S1 23:55
follow through on it and making sure that you really have your timelines in order, so that if

S1 24:00
you were to get an asset late, it’s not going to make or break your campaign. And that those

S3 24:06
timelines, what do you mean by that? So depending on what you have in your contract, you could have

S1 24:11
an agreement, for instance, that you have 60 days to be able to put paid media spend behind that

S1 24:16
video. You could have 90 days, you could have a year, you could own it outright. But then within

S1 24:22
that contract you also want to have usage rights outlined. For instance, can you use it on your

S1 24:27
website? Can you repurpose it in a newsletter? And there is a benefit to getting all of that nailed

S1 24:34
out before the ink dries, if you will, on the contract. Because if you were to wait until

S1 24:41
after this asset goes live, you’re like, I kind of want to see how this video performs before I just

S1 24:46
buy the rights to it forever, because that is going to be expensive or more expensive, I should

S1 24:50
say. Um, you could wait. And then depending on if that video goes viral or, you know, depending

S1 24:57
on its performance, then the influencer has a little bit more leverage to charge more for those

S1 25:02
forever rights, if you will. So thinking through before you send out the brief or as you know, as

S1 25:08
you’re working on the contract, what are all the ways that I might want to use this? And if this

S1 25:13
asset did phenomenal, would I want the rights to it? So those are elements that you want to be

S1 25:18
thinking about as you’re working on contracts. As we talk about influencer marketing, as we talk

S3 25:23
about content creation. How does this all fit into a broader marketing strategy or your content

S3 25:30
strategy? So a stat that I looked up afterwards, this is a $33 billion

S5 25:36
industry. It is not going away. It’s only growing. And a big takeaway from this conference

S5 25:43
was people need to be aware of it and need to be utilizing it. To what extent is a question

S5 25:50
that is going to be pretty dependent on your brand and your goals? Um, for example, Jim Beam was

S5 25:56
there, and I thought that was really interesting because they’re not typically the type of brand

S5 26:03
that you might think about as far as influencing, because they can’t sell stuff online, they can’t

S5 26:08
ship alcohol, or you can’t press a button and randomly buy whiskey off of a off of TikTok shop.

S5 26:14
So for them, it doesn’t make sense for it to be a huge, huge part of their marketing plan and

S5 26:20
marketing budget. But they’re still utilizing it in different ways, so it’s just really dependent

S5 26:25
on your brand and your goals. And it’s just one piece of the puzzle. And in the toolbox, I think

S5 26:31
someone said earlier of something you should be considering and to be using, because it’s such a

S5 26:37
big thing that is only getting bigger. But there’s no like, blanket way to do it. It’s

S6 26:43
interesting. I mean, Jim Beam advertises all the time. Um, they’re I mean, maybe they’re

S6 26:50
going to fly a little plane over a beach at some point in time. And no matter what, you can’t go

S6 26:57
click on anything. But you can go to the bar down the street, right. And you can order. You can order

S6 27:01
a cocktail. Um, so you know that that peer to peer marketing, like, you feel like you have a

S6 27:07
relationship with these influencers that you follow or podcasters that you listen to or

S6 27:11
whoever it is, like what they say is meaningful to you because you you align with what they’re

S6 27:17
saying, like what they say resonates. So, um, you know, I can see how a B2B that doesn’t have an

S6 27:23
online presence can really benefit from this, but they might not be able to measure it the same way.

S1 27:28
That’s one of the things that was really interesting from the from the conference is we

S1 27:32
were talking or we were hearing from brands like Elf cosmetics, brands like Microsoft, who have

S1 27:39
$100,000 to spend on one influencer partnership, a lot of smaller businesses.

S1 27:45
That’s a huge chunk of change. And so regardless of whatever your budget is, you have to be able to

S1 27:51
measure it against other things that you’re doing so that you can justify those dollars. And so

S1 27:56
that’s something that we heard over and over again in the conference was measure, measure,

S1 28:01
measure. Because if you’re selling your C-suite on doing something like this and they have no idea

S1 28:06
what influencer marketing is, and you ask them for a $50,000 budget to go, you know, buy this

S1 28:12
partnership or engage an influencer. That’s that’s a big ask. And so you have to be able to

S1 28:19
measure it, whether it’s in earned media value, whether it’s an engagement rate, whether you give

S1 28:24
an affiliate code and you’re able to track sales, you have to have something in place. And it was

S1 28:30
almost shocking to me that we had to spend so much time on that. But it I mean, yes, you

S1 28:35
absolutely have to be doing that. We talked about this. This goes back to something that Andy said

S3 28:39
earlier about the control and how sometimes it is hard to relinquish control, but also tying in the

S3 28:46
measurability and the metrics. So when you work with a influencer where you work with the content

S3 28:51
creator, I think in this case it is an influencer. When you work with an influencer, how can you

S3 28:56
still control the advertising and the measurability around the video they create? Yes. So

S1 29:02
we can whitelist influencer videos as ads they show from the influencers page.

S1 29:09
Right? That’s what makes them the influencer. And so you should be able to get the exact same

S1 29:14
metrics that you would take from your own video on your own page. They should be providing those

S1 29:20
same exact metrics. So you just treat the influencer content like a video that you upload

S3 29:25
when you create an ad, but you don’t actually upload it, they just give you the they give you

S3 29:30
the ability or the right to advertise their video. That’s right. And the amount of time that you

S1 29:36
have to put budget behind that video is kind of built into that code that they give you.

S1 29:43
So you can get a code for 60 days, you can get a code for 90 days. I think you can get a code for

S1 29:47
120 days. It varies by platform. Um, but again, that goes back to the contracts and just

S1 29:54
making sure that you understand your usage rights before you start putting dollars behind it. That

S3 29:60
piece of it just shows how Annie was saying it’s part of the toolbox. It’s one of the things in

S3 30:04
your strategy. So when we are creating media budgets for clients, we may say we have 5000 for

S3 30:09
this month. We’re going to allocate 3000 to an influencer whitelisting video, and 2000 for the

S3 30:15
video that we paid to produce. Right. Like it’s all part of it. It’s all part of your strategy, and a

S1 30:21
lot of people get really overwhelmed when you start talking about influencer marketing. It is

S1 30:25
truly just one piece of your puzzle of your digital strategy for the year or the campaign or

S1 30:31
whatever that looks like. You’re just treating it like a piece of that. So I don’t think by any

S1 30:36
means it’s replacing the other things that you’re doing. It’s just another avenue to reach a new

S1 30:41
audience. And Annie, for those that listen to your your podcast on video and repurposing content and

S3 30:47
the levels of content actually kind of said it’s not it’s not taking the place of traditional

S3 30:53
video content. How do you grapple all of that? Yeah, an interesting part of what we learned

S5 30:60
there as well is just this balance, production value balance, essentially. And it has been a

S5 31:06
little bit of a mental hump to get over the past couple of years of. I mean, I think I said this in

S5 31:11
the last podcast, we want to make movies all the time. We want to make amazing, beautiful, great

S5 31:17
videos all the time, but sometimes that’s not appropriate. And they talked about the difference

S5 31:21
between kind of these bigger brand moments, which is what in my mind, we reserve that

S5 31:28
more high quality production value stuff for versus the. They called it lo fi

S5 31:35
content. That is kind of for those always on channels where you need to reach people at any

S5 31:40
hour of the day, you have to figure. Even big brands don’t have the budgets to produce that

S6 31:45
nonstop to be to produce enough content for the chronically online. That’s my new favorite,

S6 31:50
favorite phrase. Correct. And so just again, thinking about it as another tool where

S5 31:57
everything has a place. Right. But if you work with influencers who can do this at a quicker

S5 32:04
rate, they have more reach. Like why not consider it? Because people are online scrolling all the

S5 32:11
time. So you just want to maximize the way that you’re reaching people. And it’s just another

S5 32:16
additional way to do that, in addition to the fun, fancy stuff that we love to do all the time as

S5 32:21
well. One, it has changed the way we look at some of our production, too. I mean, we’ve we’ve

S6 32:26
understood that, you know, like you said, we would love to make like beautiful movies all the time

S6 32:31
with, you know, wonderful lenses and, you know, all the bells and whistles. But that’s not what people

S6 32:38
always want to consume. And sometimes you have to create that more casual content. And, you know, I

S6 32:43
remember that being a little bit of a hump to get over. It’s just like, oh, but we’re all trained in

S6 32:48
doing this one thing. Um, so even when we’re creating the content that feels like it fits

S6 32:54
in in the world of TikTok and Instagram and meta in general, um, it

S6 33:01
can. That was a shift. Yeah, definitely. We’ve had to evolve and adapt to some of that, but it’s been

S5 33:06
fun. I feel like now we’re kind of on the other side of it, and we’re thinking more creatively

S5 33:11
about how we can do this stuff still in house. In-house. And, you know, that would be more under

S5 33:16
the user generated content side of things. But recently we got all of our dogs to star in some

S5 33:23
new fun lo fi, very low lift, but still very adorable ads for a dog treat company

S5 33:29
that we’re working with. And so it’s been a fun evolution. And and I think that previously, yeah, we

S3 33:35
would use de novo dogs. Right. We would bring our de novo dogs and we’d bring them into the studio.

S3 33:39
We would have this big commercial setup, but now lo fi always on. We were recording it on our cell

S3 33:45
phones. We were using our phone to record it. Then we edited it for the ad, and I think that I’m very

S3 33:52
curious and excited to see how that’s going to pan out when it comes to the measuring and

S3 33:55
reporting on it, like we get to do with all of our ads. And one more thing to one of the things that

S5 34:01
someone said at the conference, because my goal in going to this, you know, from

S5 34:08
the video department’s perspective, was how trying to learn how we fit into all this. And somebody on

S5 34:13
the panel said like, do not underestimate the importance of having a good production partner,

S5 34:18
even if sometimes influencers are editing stuff themselves, maybe they don’t have time back to

S5 34:23
that timeliness that Ashley was talking about. Maybe they can say, here’s my clips. And if you

S5 34:28
have a good editor on staff or if you, you know, we have all these other tools baked in with all of

S5 34:32
our different departments that like, we can fit into that at any point because we’re we’re also

S5 34:39
offering that good technical skill that could support the influencers content if needed. Exactly.

S1 34:45
And that goes back to having the rights to some of those assets so that you can use and reuse,

S1 34:49
make compilation videos. The editing value, I think, is something as we’ve been testing and measuring

S1 34:55
more and more influencer content that we’re seeing is actually really important. And so, you

S1 35:00
know, that’s something to keep in the back of your mind is you still want a great production partner.

S1 35:04
And I think we saw that even more at this conference. So I’m going to ask the account

S6 35:10
managers in the room when clients or or any brands that that we might be working with are

S6 35:16
curious about this, or maybe they’re not even curious about it, but you think it’s a good fit.

S6 35:20
You know, how do you start that conversation? Because this might be important to people

S6 35:24
listening to this who have to go sell this idea up the chain to somebody who might be reluctant

S6 35:30
to consider something like this. I would start off by. This is a great way to build credibility and

S1 35:36
to help identify a niche or a network if you’re not already plugged into one. So, for instance, one

S1 35:42
of my clients is a little bit of a newer brand and an idea that I heard a lot about the

S1 35:48
conference that I liked was finding your tastemakers. So of course, you know, for this pet

S1 35:54
supply company, who are the tastemakers, if you will, in that industry? So veterinarians, dog

S1 36:00
trainers trying to find people who stand out in your industry, who have a really big following

S1 36:06
online, a trusted audience that already go to them for advice for certain things and having that

S1 36:13
authentic partnership. Right. That makes sense there. They would use your product organically,

S1 36:19
potentially reaching out to them and having that sort of partnership. So again, it’s it’s kind of

S1 36:25
beyond awareness moving into credibility. The people who are interacting with that

S1 36:32
influencer are more qualified than the people that we would just be reaching with. Um, with a

S1 36:39
typical ad. And so that’s how I like to think about it, is, you know, if you’re paying for a

S1 36:43
banner on on the Google search network, likely someone who’s going to be following a tastemaker

S1 36:49
in your industry is already more qualified. They’re already further down the funnel. They

S1 36:54
already have trust associated with your influencer that you’re looking to partner with.

S1 36:59
And so that’s how I approach the conversation is it’s it’s about selecting the right person, the

S1 37:04
right fit. But then they’re adding their credibility to your brand. Actually, one of the

S3 37:10
things you said was they have a really big following. But what does that mean? What is. What is

S3 37:15
really big in the sense of influencer marketing? That is a great question. And it really depends

S1 37:20
when you’re there’s macro influencer and there’s micro influencers. And something I found

S1 37:25
interesting was that the conference both can move the needle. There’s sometimes that micro

S1 37:29
influencers lead to more sales. But you’re going to get more impressions with that macro

S1 37:35
influencer. Typically I want to say it’s around a million followers or more is going to be your

S1 37:41
macro. There can be anywhere. Yeah, the millions of followers is where we’re really getting into

S1 37:47
those macro influencers, a micro influencer, it really depends on like what the targeting is that

S1 37:53
you want. So for instance, I could be Jen could be a macro influencer in Cedar Rapids. But if we’re

S1 38:00
talking about the state of Iowa or the United States, probably more like a micro influencer. So

S1 38:05
it really depends on like the group that you’re looking at, but typically you’re going to see a

S1 38:10
million plus. Those are your macro. Okay. So you can still have just as successful of a campaign with

S3 38:15
the micro influencer even when partnering it with the whitelisting, like you said, you can still

S3 38:20
promote it to as many people as you want. If you’ve got the budget, but maybe a micro or a nano

S3 38:25
influencer might be a little bit cheaper because they don’t have that huge built in following, but

S3 38:30
their followers still care a whole lot about what they say because it’s authentic. They built that

S3 38:33
trust. Exactly. And just so just thinking about your budget. You don’t want to spend necessarily

S1 38:38
all your budget on just getting the asset and then have no left over to put behind it. That was

S1 38:43
something that I was looking up earlier from our conference. I think they said that 74% of

S1 38:49
marketers are investing more in influencer assets, but only 42% of them are

S1 38:56
putting paid media behind it. And that really blew my mind. I wanted to know where that those stats

S1 39:01
exactly came from, but in my eyes, you should be putting budget behind that. That’s how you’re

S1 39:06
going to reach, you know, even more people. And and if you’re if you’re investing in the partnership,

S1 39:13
you should be putting dollars behind that to get it further. And if you think about what you want

S5 39:18
in a customer, in an audience, in a relationship with the people that you’re reaching, like

S5 39:23
sometimes those niche or like micro influencers who are really ingrained in a certain community

S5 39:27
are really niche area of something where I am obsessed with knitting and I trust this girl.

S5 39:34
That’s not true. But I would get into knitting. Maybe that’s my next craft, but I trust this

S5 39:39
knitting. You know, she doesn’t have a million followers, but she has the best advice and I trust

S5 39:44
her no matter what she says about knitting. And so it’s just finding the right fit. And if you’re

S5 39:49
getting the right fit with those types of influencers, even if they’re smaller, you’re going

S5 39:54
to again, authenticity, trust buzzwords, buzzwords. But like, it’s true, you’re going to get those

S5 39:59
people to come back and build that trust. So in a way, it is like Any

S6 40:06
advertising that you do. Right. So you are choosing things based on a number of factors.

S6 40:12
Geography reach all of these things. It’s just really delivering it in a different way than

S6 40:19
maybe traditionally it had been done. And I think that’s something maybe, um, that can help people

S6 40:26
get over that, that hump like this. This is advertising. And I also think it’s really

S6 40:32
important for them to understand that it is an investment. It really is not it’s not anything

S1 40:38
completely new. Right? This is just an evolution of the tactics and strategies we’re already using.

S1 40:44
It’s just an evolution of how we’re getting the asset. Knowing that we we just said this is just

S3 40:50
like any other type of advertising. I’m curious to know what works with a lot of nonprofit clients.

S3 40:55
Is there space for influencers in nonprofit marketing? I think that there are ways

S6 41:02
that and there might be some that do that. More on a. This is a cause I support. Um, but they should. I

S6 41:07
don’t think non-profits should be afraid to invest in that the way they would any other

S6 41:13
advertising? Um, nonprofits put up some money to get people to their events sometimes. I mean. Mhm.

S5 41:20
Agreed. Yeah. They talked about it being potentially, um, a tool for helping fundraising

S5 41:27
efforts or helping to promote events, things like that. Think about advocacy work. And if someone’s

S5 41:32
really ingrained in that in a specific community. Like I said, I think there’s a lot of creative

S5 41:37
ways that going into the conference, that was another mental hump I had to get over because I’m

S5 41:41
like most of our a lot of our clients are non-profits. How does this apply to them? But I

S5 41:45
actually think there are a lot of creative ways that they could just kind of explore this a

S5 41:49
little more. Yeah, and I always come back to the strategy of it too. And I think that that’s where

S1 41:54
having a thought partner in something like this could be really valuable, because I think that

S1 41:59
there is a place for influencer marketing in any industry, whether you’re nonprofit for profit, it’s

S1 42:06
about thinking through that authentic relationship, doing your research upfront to make

S1 42:10
sure that it really is a good match, and then making sure that you know what your goal is or

S1 42:15
what you want to come from this. So I think what all of what Annie said is so spot on. What was

S3 42:22
your what was your biggest takeaway from the conference? Top of mind. What is each of your

S3 42:26
biggest takeaways? Mine’s pretty high level, but I think my biggest takeaway was that even these

S5 42:33
multi-million dollar companies who manage like 7000 influencers a month or whatever, their

S5 42:39
biggest piece of advice was like, just start and start small and you don’t have to throw a huge

S5 42:46
chunk of your budget at this. But it’s happening and it’s important, and it’s okay to like, just dip

S5 42:51
your toe in the water, try it out, test things. You just can start small and that’s okay. And

S5 42:56
experiment and see how it goes. Start small. Ashley, what about you? Uh, one of my favorite takeaways

S1 43:02
was content is the new targeting. And at first it didn’t really seem that insightful or deep,

S1 43:09
but the more that I thought about it, the more that I really it really resonated. And it really,

S1 43:14
um, solidified the things that were already doing. Correct. But to lean into that even more. And

S1 43:21
so that’s something I’ve really been resonating on as content is the new targeting. And I think

S1 43:26
especially when we look at working with influencers, that is so true. Is that what do

S3 43:33
you think they mean by that? Is it like because of the algorithms? Absolutely. So one of the, um, one of

S1 43:40
the things that makes TikTok so unique and so special is because they have their own secret

S1 43:45
sauce, their own algorithm. It is their proprietary, you know, piece to the platform that makes it so

S1 43:51
unique and so much better than meta. And so when you have an algorithm that’s doing so much

S1 43:58
work for you, You have to be able to play into it. So using your content as your new

S1 44:05
targeting. You know, especially when we’re thinking about influencer marketing, which is just slightly

S1 44:11
different than maybe running ads from your own platform, you have less control over the

S1 44:15
demographics that you’re hitting. You have less control over, oh, I’m only going to serve this ad,

S1 44:20
you know, to this specific type of demographic. You’re really leaning into your influencers,

S1 44:26
audience and network. And so thinking about and choosing your influencer specific to that. So

S1 44:33
content as the new targeting. Now the algorithm really chooses your audience. That and the

S6 44:39
influencer that you’re working with is also choosing your audience so well. You can choose the

S6 44:45
influencer based on their audience. What that equates to out in the real world can be very

S6 44:50
different than if you were just selecting certain demographics, psychographics, whatever it is around

S6 44:56
your audience, it’s it is a very different way to look at it, but at the same time it’s content

S6 45:02
marketing. It’s just we used to think of content marketing as a very sort of finite box of tools

S6 45:08
in a toolbox. Yeah. And I like the same content that our new Gen Z hires like. Like we are two

S3 45:15
very different demographic markets. Right. But now that it’s content focused versus solely just

S3 45:20
being demographically focused, there’s opportunity for my algorithm to get ruined even more by

S3 45:25
trying to be a trendy college girl. Okay. We covered a lot today. Thank you guys so much for

S3 45:31
sharing a glimpse of what you learned at the conference. Is there any. Are there any final

S3 45:36
points you want us to take away as the podcast comes to an end? If we want to use case scenario, I

S1 45:43
am still obsessed with Microsoft. Microsoft gave an example during one of the sessions during

S1 45:49
their panel, and I don’t know if anyone followed sailing with Phoenix. Was that the the team that,

S3 45:55
like, sailed around the world with his cat. The guy who was dying? Yes. So he got a medical diagnosis,

S1 46:02
essentially cashed in his 401 K, quit his job, bought a sailboat and was sailing from, I think,

S1 46:07
Oregon to Hawaii. I was personally following along and very invested in this man’s trip, as were

S1 46:14
about a million other people on TikTok. And I actually noticed, you know, a lot of people people

S1 46:20
know how social media works, right? Creators get paid. And so a lot of people were commenting on

S1 46:25
his videos like, hey, we really want you to get paid. Like, do you have any sponsorships? Like,

S1 46:29
people were openly asking him about that. And so next thing you know, he kind of does this

S1 46:35
promotion with copilot, Microsoft’s copilot, when it was just coming out and he was like, hey, you

S1 46:41
guys, I’m partnering with Microsoft. You said you wanted me to get paid. So here’s how I’m using

S1 46:46
Copilot. And and it was kind of funny because it was so clearly an ad. But if you had been

S1 46:52
following this man, it so fit in with who he was And and so he was using it for companionship

S1 46:59
because he’s on a boat in the middle of the ocean for two plus weeks, I think, with no social

S1 47:04
interaction. So it was like really sweet to see, like how he was organically using it. And I

S1 47:09
haven’t stopped thinking about that. And it was about like those life moments, those authenticity.

S1 47:15
Microsoft saw this guy was blowing up on social media, wanted to get in on the buzz, and actually

S1 47:20
had a product that sort of worked out and fit into his lifestyle then and there. Also very

S1 47:26
impressive that copilot could work in the middle of the ocean. Um, but so just thinking about

S1 47:32
making sure that if you’re going to move forward with something like that, that it is authentic,

S1 47:37
that it makes sense that you’ve done your research, that you’re making sure that it’s going

S1 47:41
to align with your brand, your values, maybe doing something on a smaller scale. Right. We’re not

S1 47:46
Microsoft, and we don’t have to necessarily find a man who’s sailing across the world. But what is

S1 47:50
what is a smaller way that you can get started with something like this and dive in. It’s so

S6 47:55
interesting when you say a million followers, right? You know that the average, you know, CNN show

S6 48:02
these days is pulling in like 200,000 viewers. I mean, the the eyeballs have shifted and two

S6 48:08
devices for that matter. And this is just we have to go where the eyeballs are, right? Like, that’s

S6 48:15
where you need to focus your advertising and your marketing efforts. And when you do your research

S6 48:21
and you understand what those markets look like, what those audiences look like, and the fact that

S6 48:27
it looks very different from, I’m going to advertise on this cable TV programing, and I’m

S6 48:32
going to get this demographic between 9 and 10 p.m. every night. It’s very

S6 48:39
different. And it’s it’s just a new tool as you’ve as you’ve said. Um, but I can

S6 48:46
absolutely understand where that’s more effective when you think about the volume that an

S6 48:51
influencer, the volume of their audience alone that an influencer can have. I think

S5 48:57
just going back to the idea of it being a relationship and again, if you think of

S5 49:04
influencer, you might have this automatic thing that comes to mind. That might be. Some people

S9 49:10
think. Of them as negative. Some people might have a negative. Thought when you. Think influencers

S9 49:14
actually. Have, yeah, default to a negative impression of that world. But if you think about

S5 49:20
it, it’s actually tapping deeper into the human connection element of things. It’s a relationship

S5 49:27
based partnership where that person should be an asset to your brand. It should be

S5 49:34
an extension of your voice. If you do this right and you’re doing your research and you’re

S5 49:37
partnering with people that align with you, and weirdly enough, like how we’ve evolved to be so

S5 49:44
in our phones all the time and maybe a little less human and distant, it feels sometimes. But

S5 49:49
like if you’re doing this, like your story with copilot. Like that was a brand that made a

S5 49:54
relationship with this guy and, like, made his life better throughout this journey. And for better or

S5 50:01
for worse, people trust people more than brands. And so this is just another way to get people

S5 50:07
invested in other people and each other. And if your brand fits well into the way they live

S5 50:14
their life, and people can visualize themselves interacting with it and it can visualize

S5 50:18
themselves, their lives improving, with your brand integrated into that, why not tap into that? If you

S6 50:25
think about it, brands have always tried to monetize word of mouth, and this is finally a way

S6 50:32
that they were able to do it. Exactly. Now it’s time for our segment called Creative Briefs. This

S3 50:38
is where we dig into a marketing campaign, company or idea and see what insights we can learn from

S3 50:44
their marketing moves. Today I want to talk about a specific campaigner company. I want to start us

S3 50:49
off with a question are brands making mistakes on purpose to get covered? Like, is it the whole like,

S3 50:56
no press is bad press. Like, is this the same thing, like our brands messing up on purpose so that we

S3 51:02
talk about them? I’m talking about rage bait. Yes, yes yes, yes. And some campaigns that

S3 51:09
we’ve talked about in company slack, the Matt Rife and Elf, Elf Cosmetics, Sydney Sweeney’s Good Jeans

S3 51:14
campaign, Sheehan using Luigi Mangione in an ad like, is this on purpose? I think two things are

S6 51:21
happening. I think some of it is on purpose. Absolutely. And I think that they see it working

S6 51:26
for some and they’re like, oh, we’re going to try it. Um, some of it is like just lack

S6 51:33
of expertise, honestly. Um, lack of just understanding how it works, how you build brand

S6 51:39
loyalty. We’re going maybe for quick hits, but not thinking through it as fast or as well

S6 51:46
as as they should. Um, so I think both things are true, but I definitely think that,

S6 51:53
um, it maybe Annie’s gonna edit this out, but we’re in the fuck around and find out. ERA of

S6 51:60
advertising. Um, where it’s just like, well, it worked for them, so we’re going to try it. And I

S5 52:06
think it’s a question of is the virality of something just as good or bad?

S5 52:13
Does it equate to the same as brand sentiment, loyalty, long term investment in your brand and

S5 52:20
things like that? Are we mistaking the two? Do they care? I don’t know. That’s

S1 52:27
a good point, because the whole Coors Light having, you know, the. Case of the Mondays. The

S1 52:34
case of the Mondays, I think that that maybe was like a mistake, that they turned into a great

S1 52:39
campaign. But then there’s something like the Sydney Sweeney, bad jeans, good jeans.

S6 52:46
Bad ad good genes. And good genes. Um. But yeah, I don’t I don’t

S5 52:53
think it’s mistakes. To your point, I think the core example is a really good example of them.

S5 52:59
They really did make a mistake, and then they capitalized on that in a very creative way. I

S5 53:05
don’t think the subject matter of the good genes ad or the

S5 53:11
choice in casting for the Elf, there’s no way that that at least wasn’t

S5 53:19
partially in the awareness of someone at the at those companies. So what? So what

S5 53:26
is the goal and is the goal engagement? Rage bait likes comments because

S5 53:33
in the algorithm it doesn’t matter. It doesn’t matter if you’re saying a hateful comment or I

S5 53:39
hate this or you’re supporting it like engagement is engagement. So is that the metric now? And we

S5 53:44
don’t care how we’re going to get it. And then at what point does that get into marketing ethics? I.

S1 53:51
Absolutely. We will share links to this in the show notes. So if you’re if you’re not familiar

S3 53:56
with these ads, watch these videos. We’ll put them in the notes. But I think you’re right Annie. It’s

S3 54:01
like it does come down like a reaction is a reaction on social media a like a comment, etc. an

S3 54:07
angry face. It’s all the same. So if you if you hate something and you literally put like the

S3 54:12
angry emoji like that is just as much as beneficial as a like emoji and the, the algorithm,

S3 54:18
the network is going to keep sharing it and keep. Sharing. It and keep sharing it. And I think it

S3 54:23
ties into it. I’m going to I’m going to bring in the Cracker Barrel. I don’t think that this I will

S3 54:28
say the Cracker Barrel. This was not done on purpose. The Cracker Barrel, when they changed

S3 54:31
their brand, they removed the man and they changed. They modernized the font, if you will. This was not

S3 54:37
a publicity stunt, but they they changed the brand. There was a huge outcry on social media and we

S3 54:43
saw the media mentions or the the earned media value. Right. We saw that skyrocket. We saw this

S3 54:48
huge uptick. I, I did a search just on Google Trends, which tracks the Google searches over

S3 54:55
a period of time. And on August 20th, the week of August 24th, that was when they had peak media

S3 55:02
mentions, Google searches, etc.. So August 24th, then using a location analytics tool that we

S3 55:09
use that allows us to see how many people are going to locations. I looked at all of the cracker

S3 55:15
barrels across the United States the same week. They they were down 200,000 from last year, and

S3 55:22
they just basically so. It. It didn’t actually pay off. All these all these media mentions, there was

S3 55:28
no traffic increase. There was actually a traffic decrease. So is that what these other brands are

S3 55:34
experiencing to like what they did. Did American Eagle sell more jeans? I think they. Did. I think

S5 55:40
their stock. Went up well, at least temporarily. Which they are trying to sell. But. I think they

S5 55:44
also increase sales. Yeah. Um, the thing is, is I think we will desensitize to this the way. I

S6 55:51
mean, nature always seeks an equilibrium. And at some point in time, people just get tired of, oh,

S6 55:56
like another brand is doing a stupid thing. Um. Oh, look, they put Luigi Mangione on accident. Um,

S6 56:03
it’s. This is. Everything is so sped up these days. Like what used to take a generation to change

S6 56:10
now can happen so quickly. So this is a moment in time. Some brands are trying to capitalize on it,

S6 56:16
and they’re looking around and saying, oh, that worked. I mean, for years there have been companies

S6 56:21
that have horrible ads and they’re like, well, you’re still talking about it, right? And they

S6 56:25
think that that’s good, but it doesn’t necessarily translate to actual sales. These momentary

S6 56:32
spikes, or lack thereof, in some cases, this is just a moment in time. We’re in a time in our

S6 56:38
culture where we are all about grievances and anything that accelerates our grievances or gives

S6 56:44
us that dopamine hit of being angry, um, right now can be effective, but long term. Are

S6 56:51
you losing trust in your brand? And will that play out? And like having been in this

S6 56:58
industry long enough now? Um, I think it’s a mistake to use that as a tactic right now. Be

S6 57:02
clever. Be absolutely clever. Um, but don’t be stupid. Yeah. I mean, you’re

S5 57:09
alienating your audiences in some of these instances, especially in the elf, uh, situation. I

S5 57:15
don’t know if that actually affected their sales now, but I think your question is a

S5 57:22
good one, Jen. Long term, what is that going to do to sentiment overall? Um, not

S5 57:29
necessarily awareness, but like loyalty and acceptance of your brand and its values. Bret. Jen,

S3 57:34
I think you you made a very good point. You’re like people been saying, oh, well, you’re talking

S3 57:40
about it for years, for decades. And I think that that might be what happened with American Eagle. I

S3 57:45
don’t think this was a planned like, let’s get them talking about this. Like I think they thought

S3 57:50
it was a really good ad, I do. I think that they thought that it had a good meaning. I think that

S3 57:55
they’re like, oh, it’s a double. It’s a play, a double entendre. So. Right. I do think that a few

S6 58:00
years ago somebody would have been like, you can’t say that. And right now I do think that brands are

S6 58:05
a little bit like, what can we get away with? Like will this appeal to a certain base? And maybe they

S6 58:10
weren’t thinking everybody would get mad, but maybe they were thinking it might appeal to a

S6 58:16
certain segment of our population. So that has been interesting to watch as

S6 58:22
the national narrative changes on on subjects like this, what brands are like, what can what can

S6 58:29
we get away with? Yeah, I think it’s very curious. And I now whenever

S3 58:36
there is something where there’s this any called it rage bait. And that’s a common term like this

S3 58:40
rage. But I’m always thinking like, is this just to get a reaction out of me? Right. And I, I hope that

S3 58:46
now that I’m cognizant of it, I don’t give them that reaction. I hope, but still, at the same time,

S3 58:52
I’m still sharing it with friends. I’m like, this is so dumb. Like, I’m so mad. And that’s why I’m not.

S5 58:56
Knowing the true intention. I guess the best solution is don’t engage. So as we’re talking

S3 59:02
about authenticity, right? That’s something that we always preach with our marketing. We’ve been

S3 59:06
talking about it more and more on this podcast. That authenticity does come into question when

S3 59:11
you get to something like a scale like this. It’s like that authenticity that, that marketing moral

S3 59:16
compass. Where is it going? Where is it going? If this is if this is where. Maybe this is the

S6 59:21
marketing moral. Compass of some of these companies too, though, right? Like, yeah. If they’re

S10 59:26
sitting around a room and they’re like, we’re going to use an ad that mentions that basically

S10 59:29
alludes to eugenics and nobody’s like, yeah, that’s a bad idea. Uh, maybe that is authentic to their

S10 59:35
brand. I want to say, that. What do you want to say? Well, if you take a look at the

S1 59:42
the people who were approving that ad, I bet they didn’t see anything wrong with that. And so I

S1 59:47
think that comes back to the importance of having a broad perspective and diversity in the decision

S1 59:51
making that maybe didn’t come to their, you know, they maybe didn’t realize what that was inferring.

S1 59:58
But God, you gotta think they. Well, it might still be champagne and cocaine over. There right. Now. But

S6 1:00:03
I do think that over time that this type of thing does affect a brand. And brands go up and brands

S6 1:00:08
go down in this market. Um, you know, they’re probably writing this right now, but I think it

S6 1:00:13
will probably impact them negatively in the long run. Mhm. And this was an opportunity as well for

S3 1:00:19
other brands to, to show their true colors or to, to or to respond. That’s always the fun part of

S3 1:00:24
something like this. Like the competing industries or the competing brand. How they then respond. So

S3 1:00:30
we were talking about American Eagle Jeans. Levi’s had a great one. Um, gap had a really great one as

S3 1:00:35
well where they were talking about their values. I think Jen kind of alluded to it. We want our

S3 1:00:40
brands to have basically like political stances on things. Right? And without getting political

S3 1:00:44
like that is how it works now. So it’s it was all tied in and just curious to see how how other

S3 1:00:50
brands jumped on the bandwagon. Whenever Wendy’s is talking about you, you know that you either

S3 1:00:55
messed up or did really good. And Wendy’s even had a a take on this. Now I have to go look. That up on.

S1 1:01:01
Speedometer. X. Or Twitter or whatever we’re calling it now. Account. Oh yeah, their. Threads.

S5 1:01:06
Cannot be. Beat. I will also say I used to exclusively only wear American Eagle jeans. I did

S3 1:01:12
like they I. Well, and I wonder why something. Jeans like an American Eagle where your audience

S1 1:01:19
completely changes out what, every four years, every eight years maybe something like that is

S1 1:01:24
less impactful to them. But it’s like, you know, would you take your kid there? You’re like, no, they

S1 1:01:29
had this terrible ad back in the day. But is Calvin Klein still hurting from their Kate Moss

S1 1:01:33
commercial? I don’t think so. So maybe this will be the. I don’t even know what that is. Kate Moss did

S1 1:01:39
a similar type of ad for Calvin Klein back in the day, where it was like a little racy, a little.

S7 1:01:44
Sexualized. A little, but maybe with less of a eugenics undertone. Well, that’s the thing. It’s

S5 1:01:51
like. Maybe. At some other. Well, I don’t know what I’m. Mhm. Let me say

S5 1:01:57
this and then I might cut it out. But like maybe at some other point in time people would not have

S5 1:02:03
thought as much about something like this. But like Jen said, I mean you have to take into

S5 1:02:10
consideration the world that we live in and what things are like right now and how divisive things

S5 1:02:17
are. And you cannot convince me that something like that,

S5 1:02:23
and the possibility of it being problematic, did not cross their minds. So bringing it all back.

S3 1:02:30
Ashley. Question. Yes or no? We’re talking about the the Sydney Sweeney campaign. Do you think they did

S3 1:02:36
this on purpose? Yes, absolutely. Jen, what’s your take? No, I think they’re done.

S3 1:02:43
Annie, what about you? I think the truth is probably somewhere in between, and.

S5 1:02:52
I’ll leave it at that. And? And I said it earlier. I don’t think they did it on purpose. I think it was

S3 1:02:57
just a really great way to fall back on and be like, well, you’re talking about us like, I don’t, I

S3 1:03:02
don’t. I’m kind of with Jen on this one. Annie Ashley, thank you so much for joining us on

S3 1:03:08
today’s episode and for sharing all of your insights from the conference and all of the other

S3 1:03:13
wonderful tips that you gave us today. Thank you guys for having us. This was fun. Jen, thank you for

S1 1:03:17
letting us go to New York and be daddy’s little meatball. Oh my gosh, daddy’s little meatball

S7 1:03:22
forever. That’s great marketing. That was a shirt that I saw hanging outside on the street. I fully

S5 1:03:27
regret not buying it for Ryan. That was my intention. But we were, I think, late for the

S5 1:03:32
airport. So all I have. Is our body. And the memory of daddy’s little meatball forever.

S7 1:03:38
Oh. That did make me spit. Out my water. Thanks for listening. We hope you enjoyed

S2 1:03:45
this episode of Think Fresh. And remember, the conversation does not have to end here. If you

S3 1:03:50
liked what you heard today. Be sure to follow us on Facebook, LinkedIn, or Instagram. Review our show

S3 1:03:55
on whatever you listen to your podcast on, or share all your marketing trials and triumphs by

S3 1:03:60
shooting us an email at info at thinktank with the subject line dear de novo so we don’t miss it.

S2 1:04:06
And while you wait eagerly for our next episode, you can get your fix by checking out our blog,

S2 1:04:11
Fresh Thinking at Vogue.com. Stay tuned for more engaging conversations, laughs, and of course,

S2 1:04:17
marketing brilliance and me making fun of Ryan in the next episodes to come. Here’s to fresh

S3 1:04:22
thinking, sparking creativity, and never being boring. Bye, friends!

S12 1:04:29
Are we swearing on this or no?